Re---Hoperf modules
- Thread starter centrex
- Start date
Yishi YS-1020U trials
OK-completing overdue tasks has been amongst my 2009 resolutions (yeah right), but I've at least got day 1 of the year off to a good start with the 2 x Yishi 433 MHz units sent over from Oz. pre Xmas for evaluation. (For those who've just come in, we've a TransTasman PICAXE "gang of 4 " working on 2009 era 433 MHz approaches. Well- that's as seasonal fly swatting/beer chilling/surfing/kangaroo racing & similar colonial summer indulgences permit of course).
As way too much time was put in mid 2008 investigating (& simplifying/debugging) HopeRF offerings-especially at their programmable config. level- I decided to just tackle these YS-1020U straight "out of the box". Yes the down under heat brings on such rashness - & it's just a mere 28°C here at my PC today. No config. tweaks have hence yet been done, although the Yishi editor looks very agreeable.
Things went swimmingly, with ranges thru' light vegetation & wooden buildings ~200m, & easily 500m LOS. This was at 300bps, as IMHO UHF ranges tend to be enhanced with slower data rates. Either of the the inbuilt TTL or RS-232 connections worked well for me with a driving 08M, although current drain on my usual 3 x AAs supply (~60ma on Tx, & 40mA Rx) rather high. A UHF scanner confirmed 434.0325 MHz operation OK, but annoyingly this looks the only possible channel (of the 8 offered) within the legal 433 ISM band.
As rapid tx/rx changeover was apparent (indicated by winking green & red SMD LED's on the module),I rustled up a simple program to run them "walkie talkie" style ½ duplex. Both ends were wired up & programmed identically. Naturally the usual PICAXE SERIN hangup arises if the remote Tx signal becomes lost, but use of a simple PULSOUT "beeper" allowed auto transponder style response when back in range again. N.B. Bug alert -both units may still randomly fall into timeless SERINs of course,& this may just happen to occur at moments when the "beeper" signal is lost at extended range.
THOUGHT: PULSIN , which here is just being triggered by any serial level changes, DOES of course usefully timeout after ~0.6 sec if nothing is received. In spite of the "bug" above,I've pondered before that this command may well have further wireless utility, alerting that serial data is about arrive-perhaps by pre-sending "1 heavy" ASCII characters such as "?" 63 (00111111) or 127 (01111111), & checking the overall pulse length.
Initial opinion: Although these Yishi units are (at ~US$23 ex. works) at least ~twice the HopeRF HM-TR price, & being 2005 era are themselves hence possibly dated, they look to be well worth investigating further, & may have serious semi-professional 433 MHz ISM applications.
OK-completing overdue tasks has been amongst my 2009 resolutions (yeah right), but I've at least got day 1 of the year off to a good start with the 2 x Yishi 433 MHz units sent over from Oz. pre Xmas for evaluation. (For those who've just come in, we've a TransTasman PICAXE "gang of 4 " working on 2009 era 433 MHz approaches. Well- that's as seasonal fly swatting/beer chilling/surfing/kangaroo racing & similar colonial summer indulgences permit of course).
As way too much time was put in mid 2008 investigating (& simplifying/debugging) HopeRF offerings-especially at their programmable config. level- I decided to just tackle these YS-1020U straight "out of the box". Yes the down under heat brings on such rashness - & it's just a mere 28°C here at my PC today. No config. tweaks have hence yet been done, although the Yishi editor looks very agreeable.
Things went swimmingly, with ranges thru' light vegetation & wooden buildings ~200m, & easily 500m LOS. This was at 300bps, as IMHO UHF ranges tend to be enhanced with slower data rates. Either of the the inbuilt TTL or RS-232 connections worked well for me with a driving 08M, although current drain on my usual 3 x AAs supply (~60ma on Tx, & 40mA Rx) rather high. A UHF scanner confirmed 434.0325 MHz operation OK, but annoyingly this looks the only possible channel (of the 8 offered) within the legal 433 ISM band.
As rapid tx/rx changeover was apparent (indicated by winking green & red SMD LED's on the module),I rustled up a simple program to run them "walkie talkie" style ½ duplex. Both ends were wired up & programmed identically. Naturally the usual PICAXE SERIN hangup arises if the remote Tx signal becomes lost, but use of a simple PULSOUT "beeper" allowed auto transponder style response when back in range again. N.B. Bug alert -both units may still randomly fall into timeless SERINs of course,& this may just happen to occur at moments when the "beeper" signal is lost at extended range.
THOUGHT: PULSIN , which here is just being triggered by any serial level changes, DOES of course usefully timeout after ~0.6 sec if nothing is received. In spite of the "bug" above,I've pondered before that this command may well have further wireless utility, alerting that serial data is about arrive-perhaps by pre-sending "1 heavy" ASCII characters such as "?" 63 (00111111) or 127 (01111111), & checking the overall pulse length.
Initial opinion: Although these Yishi units are (at ~US$23 ex. works) at least ~twice the HopeRF HM-TR price, & being 2005 era are themselves hence possibly dated, they look to be well worth investigating further, & may have serious semi-professional 433 MHz ISM applications.
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I'm a bit lost as to the final opinion on these Hope RF things. There are a number of threads and all of them long so...
They started off as the best thing since sliced bread, then there were some queries/problems, and now some more cheap stuff is being sprayed out from China.
Hope Summary?
Cheap'n'cheerful?
Good value?
Inconsistent? (Some good, some bad?)
or Look Elsewhere.
They started off as the best thing since sliced bread, then there were some queries/problems, and now some more cheap stuff is being sprayed out from China.
Hope Summary?
Cheap'n'cheerful?
Good value?
Inconsistent? (Some good, some bad?)
or Look Elsewhere.
Dippy: Come now m'lad-such reservation is not your usual style. It's early days for these 2nd generation UHF data transceivers, so their diverse bugs,workarounds & field performances are still being explored. The whole commercial wireless data field is VERY fast moving as well- somewhat being driven by smart utility metering needs. Microwave level 2.4GHz ZigBee may have Western appeal, but it's ranges are naturally limited in high density Asian cities. UHF is viewed as having more RF "punch" for drive by/stroll by (& GSM call in) meter reading.
Almost all offerings arise from Shenzhen,the manufacturing mega-city near HK, & hence a degree of badge engineering looks apparent. Significant trial hassles relate less to English-Chinese language issues, & more to a makers culture of annoyingly drip feeding key info. Hence it turns out that the valuable HopeRF "sleep" is only effective on their TTL version, with their RS-232 rather a power hog. The HopeRF overload when the units are very close is another gotcha, although easy enough to live with once appreciated. In spite of many cut & try hours, the significance of diverse HopeRF settings still rather elude me.
FWIW,skinflint PICAXE use at least may see the wireless data field settling eventually into 3 "horses for courses" levels -
1. Classic dead simple ASK Tx & Rx ~$5-10 each, suiting education & simplex short range (~100m) use. Low power Tx (~2mW) & Rx often "deaf". Jaycar's ZW3100/ZW3102 Keymark pair look the best of these.
2. Combo programmable FSK Tx/Rx in HopeRF style,~US$15-$25 each, allowing modest range increases (to ~½km LOS) & perhaps inbuilt error handling etc. Tx 5-10mW & better Rx.Although more costly,likes of the Yishi mentioned above may be user friendlier & more versatile-power supply "pickiness" may be less of an issue too. Best use serious hobbyists.
3. Combo programmable "wake on signal" types in the US$30-$50 range, with greater Tx power ( perhaps beyond legal specs.) & superior Rx giving ranges to several km. Best suiting professional applications in more demanding conditions & terrain- such as Dr_A's "Koala Kountry" .
Of course these 2nd gene programmable "direct from maker" Asian goodies are only a small part of traditional offerings in the UHF data field, but I've found (over the last decade) many European sourced professional (= $$$) 433 MHz devices hugely overpriced -some by an order of magnitude- for their features & performance. It reminds me of past $$$($) prices for the likes of WiFi adapters,antenna & connectors,when highly effective "poor man's" links could instead be rustled up for $($) => www.usbwifi.orconhosting.net.nz
EXTRA: Perhaps the PICAXE field itself is comparable - I put in a huge effort 2002-3 checking cost effective & user friendly micro offerings, & wrestled with all manner of digital alligators before the PICAXE "Yes !" moment arrived.
Almost all offerings arise from Shenzhen,the manufacturing mega-city near HK, & hence a degree of badge engineering looks apparent. Significant trial hassles relate less to English-Chinese language issues, & more to a makers culture of annoyingly drip feeding key info. Hence it turns out that the valuable HopeRF "sleep" is only effective on their TTL version, with their RS-232 rather a power hog. The HopeRF overload when the units are very close is another gotcha, although easy enough to live with once appreciated. In spite of many cut & try hours, the significance of diverse HopeRF settings still rather elude me.
FWIW,skinflint PICAXE use at least may see the wireless data field settling eventually into 3 "horses for courses" levels -
1. Classic dead simple ASK Tx & Rx ~$5-10 each, suiting education & simplex short range (~100m) use. Low power Tx (~2mW) & Rx often "deaf". Jaycar's ZW3100/ZW3102 Keymark pair look the best of these.
2. Combo programmable FSK Tx/Rx in HopeRF style,~US$15-$25 each, allowing modest range increases (to ~½km LOS) & perhaps inbuilt error handling etc. Tx 5-10mW & better Rx.Although more costly,likes of the Yishi mentioned above may be user friendlier & more versatile-power supply "pickiness" may be less of an issue too. Best use serious hobbyists.
3. Combo programmable "wake on signal" types in the US$30-$50 range, with greater Tx power ( perhaps beyond legal specs.) & superior Rx giving ranges to several km. Best suiting professional applications in more demanding conditions & terrain- such as Dr_A's "Koala Kountry" .
Of course these 2nd gene programmable "direct from maker" Asian goodies are only a small part of traditional offerings in the UHF data field, but I've found (over the last decade) many European sourced professional (= $$$) 433 MHz devices hugely overpriced -some by an order of magnitude- for their features & performance. It reminds me of past $$$($) prices for the likes of WiFi adapters,antenna & connectors,when highly effective "poor man's" links could instead be rustled up for $($) => www.usbwifi.orconhosting.net.nz
EXTRA: Perhaps the PICAXE field itself is comparable - I put in a huge effort 2002-3 checking cost effective & user friendly micro offerings, & wrestled with all manner of digital alligators before the PICAXE "Yes !" moment arrived.
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Very helpful information there.
Re Dippy's comment, the main limitation I found on the Hope modules was the 32 byte buffer. My design criteria are for picaxe comms and also for CP/M comms. (The latter using XModem which is a 30+ year old protocol and great for sending huge files) Xmodem requires the ability to stream out data in bigger chunks - 132 bytes. The Hope modules would buffer in 32 bytes and then go off and transmit them and not read in the next few bytes.
However, testing units to this level involves building some more boards and I'm waiting on some to arrive from the manufacturers.
The range tests on the Yishi modules are most encouraging.
I've got HAC modules to test as well. Just waiting on the boards...
Re Dippy's comment, the main limitation I found on the Hope modules was the 32 byte buffer. My design criteria are for picaxe comms and also for CP/M comms. (The latter using XModem which is a 30+ year old protocol and great for sending huge files) Xmodem requires the ability to stream out data in bigger chunks - 132 bytes. The Hope modules would buffer in 32 bytes and then go off and transmit them and not read in the next few bytes.
However, testing units to this level involves building some more boards and I'm waiting on some to arrive from the manufacturers.
The range tests on the Yishi modules are most encouraging.
I've got HAC modules to test as well. Just waiting on the boards...
Great Info
Great Info Stan,
and good pickup in the hobby to semi pro tiering.
Just a reminder, the Yishi 1020U# modules you have are meant to be the "low power" as in 10mW RF power, although they seem to consume a lot of mA. I can't figure that out. I guess the 10mW limit is for a legal reason, in the wireless meter reading they can't be too powerful. 500m LOS and 200 m through objects is pretty good. Plus you can play around with antennas.
My experience in very low power - waiting for a solar panel to fire up the picaxe, 2 V, is that current leakage from or into the picaxe when it is not fully powered is best controlled by going in through the RS232 interface rather than the TTL. I used the "high side switch" NPN-PNP transistor combo (learned from this forum) to effectively turn it on and off and control the duty cycle. More playing to do, but the Yishi is looking less prone to baud rate (air rate) resets than the Hope modules.
My experience with both the hope and the Yishi 1020u# is that they have an "air rate", and that if you send the data from the picaxe at a lower rate eg 300bps in your trials, then the modules will change it up to the module's air rate - eg 1200. Must be inbuilt in the modules processor, but they feel no need to advertise this on the datasheets as there is no real benefit in their usual markets.
Just picking up on dippys point from afar - although we get excited with these new toys, we must accept that we will not get 100% info that we want in terms of performance specifications, documentation and interfacing software. This is a challenge, working through these challenges can be frustrating but also rewarding. If the modules, supporting data and software were "perfect" then there would be a lot more $$$ and pounds involved, beyond the realm of the hobbyist. I'm loving it that so many people want to have a go, and are willing to share!
PS - Stan, i really like that pulsin idea to manage the serin hang - excellent. We can't use a 28X1 every time we want a serin timeout.
Michael
Great Info Stan,
and good pickup in the hobby to semi pro tiering.
Just a reminder, the Yishi 1020U# modules you have are meant to be the "low power" as in 10mW RF power, although they seem to consume a lot of mA. I can't figure that out. I guess the 10mW limit is for a legal reason, in the wireless meter reading they can't be too powerful. 500m LOS and 200 m through objects is pretty good. Plus you can play around with antennas.
My experience in very low power - waiting for a solar panel to fire up the picaxe, 2 V, is that current leakage from or into the picaxe when it is not fully powered is best controlled by going in through the RS232 interface rather than the TTL. I used the "high side switch" NPN-PNP transistor combo (learned from this forum) to effectively turn it on and off and control the duty cycle. More playing to do, but the Yishi is looking less prone to baud rate (air rate) resets than the Hope modules.
My experience with both the hope and the Yishi 1020u# is that they have an "air rate", and that if you send the data from the picaxe at a lower rate eg 300bps in your trials, then the modules will change it up to the module's air rate - eg 1200. Must be inbuilt in the modules processor, but they feel no need to advertise this on the datasheets as there is no real benefit in their usual markets.
Just picking up on dippys point from afar - although we get excited with these new toys, we must accept that we will not get 100% info that we want in terms of performance specifications, documentation and interfacing software. This is a challenge, working through these challenges can be frustrating but also rewarding. If the modules, supporting data and software were "perfect" then there would be a lot more $$$ and pounds involved, beyond the realm of the hobbyist. I'm loving it that so many people want to have a go, and are willing to share!
PS - Stan, i really like that pulsin idea to manage the serin hang - excellent. We can't use a 28X1 every time we want a serin timeout.
Michael
I am with Dippy.
The Hope modules came on with a hellavu fan fair, surplys available in Aus articles in magazines etc now it seems there is a new kid on the block.
For some of us who would like to have a reliable wireless system for data transfer this could get expensive.
I know this is all do it yourself but some of us require a fair bit of guidance as can be seen by some of the posts.
I Hope no pun intended that some of the more enlightened members can come up with useable systems for the Hope.
The Hope modules came on with a hellavu fan fair, surplys available in Aus articles in magazines etc now it seems there is a new kid on the block.
For some of us who would like to have a reliable wireless system for data transfer this could get expensive.
I know this is all do it yourself but some of us require a fair bit of guidance as can be seen by some of the posts.
I Hope no pun intended that some of the more enlightened members can come up with useable systems for the Hope.
Centrex-good point,& one echoed by Microzed (who are both the Australian PICAXE & now HopeRF agent). It's fair to say however -modest cough here- that the kind of "smell of an oily rag" R&D/PR I've modestly drummed up has lead to this very HopeRF visibility & acceptance. They're indeed great bang for buck, but then so was the Model T!
The white hot changes in electronics continually demand one keeping alert for productive approaches-witness spectacular 2008 digital camera, Flash memory & Netbook advances. Who even knew what a Netbook WAS this time last year, yet they've redefined portable computing in the last 18 months. I visited a NZ school recently that was still using reliable 2002 vintage 08s, with the dedicated but stressed teacher seemingly in ignorance of the now ~5 yo. 08M! Stan
Extra: Managed a "reliable" 1km ½ duplex semi LOS range trial OK, but this looks about the 10mW Yishi YS-1020 limit with the supplied antenna. Fitting even a ~6dB 4 element "cotanga" Yagi would boost this- each 6dB gain doubles range of course. With a Yagi each end that (~3km ) offshore harbour island could probably be fair game. My trusty UHF scanner hears all sorts of 433 ISM signals from Wellington city (10km cross harbour) when at this eagles nest- some presumably illegally exceeding the 25mW Tx power limit.
The white hot changes in electronics continually demand one keeping alert for productive approaches-witness spectacular 2008 digital camera, Flash memory & Netbook advances. Who even knew what a Netbook WAS this time last year, yet they've redefined portable computing in the last 18 months. I visited a NZ school recently that was still using reliable 2002 vintage 08s, with the dedicated but stressed teacher seemingly in ignorance of the now ~5 yo. 08M! Stan
Extra: Managed a "reliable" 1km ½ duplex semi LOS range trial OK, but this looks about the 10mW Yishi YS-1020 limit with the supplied antenna. Fitting even a ~6dB 4 element "cotanga" Yagi would boost this- each 6dB gain doubles range of course. With a Yagi each end that (~3km ) offshore harbour island could probably be fair game. My trusty UHF scanner hears all sorts of 433 ISM signals from Wellington city (10km cross harbour) when at this eagles nest- some presumably illegally exceeding the 25mW Tx power limit.
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Thanks for that Stan. A nice summary.
Lack of decent documentation is worrying. I dread to think how many weeks of thread were taken up with queries and problems.
Rushed to market?
When first mentioned with great gusto they appeared to wipe out the opposition in terms of bang for buck. Maybe they still do. Certainly the paper specs are impressive. The issues sometimes raised seem less impressive.
But , until now, is there any competition?
A 32 byte buffer is poor - Even a 1 dollar 16F could give the spec that Dr_Ac is after (and more).
A little more work and 50 extra cents could have produced a really good product.
I guess for hobby/casual work they are fine.
Lack of decent documentation is worrying. I dread to think how many weeks of thread were taken up with queries and problems.
Rushed to market?
When first mentioned with great gusto they appeared to wipe out the opposition in terms of bang for buck. Maybe they still do. Certainly the paper specs are impressive. The issues sometimes raised seem less impressive.
But , until now, is there any competition?
A 32 byte buffer is poor - Even a 1 dollar 16F could give the spec that Dr_Ac is after (and more).
A little more work and 50 extra cents could have produced a really good product.
I guess for hobby/casual work they are fine.
Dippy: I'm not sure the HopeRF buffer size is the issue- recall the 16550A series UARTs incorporated just a 16-byte FIFO? Rather it looks to be more it's "fill before sending UNLESS a short delay occurs" that's causing woes to the good Dr. Nothing that a few well placed PAUSEs can't sort out of course?!
Dr-A: My late '80s-early '90s BBS experiences are predictably dimming, & even earlier CP/M recall now almost trivial, but I remember X-Modem never had much mileage even then. Although it had block lengths in the 32k range,what about the greatly esteemed Z-Modem? Does your CP/M setup allow this far superior file transfer protocol? Stan- 25 years later.
Dr-A: My late '80s-early '90s BBS experiences are predictably dimming, & even earlier CP/M recall now almost trivial, but I remember X-Modem never had much mileage even then. Although it had block lengths in the 32k range,what about the greatly esteemed Z-Modem? Does your CP/M setup allow this far superior file transfer protocol? Stan- 25 years later.
Nothing like a good benchtest to answer these questions.
So - PC running a terminal program talking to a N8VEM homebrew CP/M board. 1200 baud so it is rock solid (The n8VEM usually chats at 38400 baud but a quick addition of a program 1200.com in the autoexec and it will boot to 1200 baud)
Tested with a wired connection.
Then replace the wired connection with Yishi modules.
Attached is a photo of the remote unit. Running wordstar, after downloading wordstar via the Yishi modules.
So in conclusion, these are the first modules we have tested that are drop in replacements for a wired connection.
I should add that I still don't think they will transmit a 'break' signal so can't do a wireless picaxe download. But they are jolly close.
1200 baud has been chosen because the 'air' rate of 1200 baud is further than at faster rates (eg 9600). 1200 also has the advantage of allowing the PC/a CPM board/picaxe to all chat to each other.
Back to more testing...
So - PC running a terminal program talking to a N8VEM homebrew CP/M board. 1200 baud so it is rock solid (The n8VEM usually chats at 38400 baud but a quick addition of a program 1200.com in the autoexec and it will boot to 1200 baud)
Tested with a wired connection.
Then replace the wired connection with Yishi modules.
Attached is a photo of the remote unit. Running wordstar, after downloading wordstar via the Yishi modules.
So in conclusion, these are the first modules we have tested that are drop in replacements for a wired connection.
I should add that I still don't think they will transmit a 'break' signal so can't do a wireless picaxe download. But they are jolly close.
1200 baud has been chosen because the 'air' rate of 1200 baud is further than at faster rates (eg 9600). 1200 also has the advantage of allowing the PC/a CPM board/picaxe to all chat to each other.
Back to more testing...
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Dr_A: Thanks for the TransTasman confirmation! Given the current Eastern Australian heatwave I'd say sprinkler control will fast be assuming a "must have" status. UK readers struggling to stay warm (in what seems one of your coldest winters on record) may find temps in the low 40s (°C) hard to imagine, but it's the associated bush fire risk that spooks Australians! Compared with humans,plants find it harder to turn up the AC,head for a swim or down cold beer(s)...
Just a quick caution re.ranges,as I noted you've mentioned 1km & "5km over water". The next thing we know folks will be quoting this as gospel. That latter figure was pretty wobbly for me, & I'd be happier to say the 10mW unit gave ~200m built up & ~1km LOS max. with the supplied antenna. With 6dB gain -either by using the (over limit) 50mW version or simple Yagi- these ranges should double to ~½km urban and 2+ km LOS. Stan
Just a quick caution re.ranges,as I noted you've mentioned 1km & "5km over water". The next thing we know folks will be quoting this as gospel. That latter figure was pretty wobbly for me, & I'd be happier to say the 10mW unit gave ~200m built up & ~1km LOS max. with the supplied antenna. With 6dB gain -either by using the (over limit) 50mW version or simple Yagi- these ranges should double to ~½km urban and 2+ km LOS. Stan
I was just reading the thread regarding Newbies not posting and I'd like to comment here, at this thread since I have found this thread so helpful. I got my first PICaxes about 3 weeks ago and now I have them up, running, chunking data around on a 433 link, and I'm having a great time. I would like to thank Dr_A for his instructable and for answering a couple of questions for me before I became a PICaxe forum devotee. I have not posted until now because: 1) I have been too busy learning from all of you; 2) manuka's searching tutorial has helped me answer my own questions; and 3) you guys are so far ahead of me I have nothing to add. I especially would like to state that I really appreciate the effort you all put into this forum. I know manuka is an educator and perhaps you and the others here don't get thanked enough for what you do. Suffice it to say you all have an avid student here and I suspect a lot of other silent newbies. I have been using Dr_A's original emadenchn modules and they work great for me here in a rural area. My next goal is to make them talk 1/2 duplex with a master and a slave. Trying to figure out an antenna switching device so I can basically make a transceiver - use a relay or solid state switch controlled by the PICaxe. Either that or go with the FSK Hoperf or Yishi transceivers but I like the cheap stuff right now.
This is probably out of place as well but one thing I have looked for but haven't found is a tutorial on building and using LCD displays. If one exists I would like to hear about it.
So, I'm here and seriously appreciate your work. Thanks.
This is probably out of place as well but one thing I have looked for but haven't found is a tutorial on building and using LCD displays. If one exists I would like to hear about it.
So, I'm here and seriously appreciate your work. Thanks.
Happy to help-your thanks of course greatly appreciated! Speaking for myself, I'll also offer you any ammount of genuine solar warmed hot air -it's 36°C (~98°F) here at my loft PC, with skylights wide open!
LCDs - quite a lot can be involved here, as most LCDs need parallel feeding. Do you know such approaches as the "Hippy" 18X or Maryland's own "Phandersons" ?
LCDs - quite a lot can be involved here, as most LCDs need parallel feeding. Do you know such approaches as the "Hippy" 18X or Maryland's own "Phandersons" ?
lbenson
Senior Member
Kigx,
Perhaps a new thread would be best if you have extended LCD questions, but the wiring and code in this thread got me started with a 14M:
http://www.picaxeforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=9662
Perhaps a new thread would be best if you have extended LCD questions, but the wiring and code in this thread got me started with a 14M:
http://www.picaxeforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=9662
Andres Rodriguez
New Member
I want to second KIGX comments.
This forum is fantastic thanks to not only the knowledge of the contributors but their patience with young and old newbies. This thread is an example of the impact that their dedication has on new comers.
Regarding the offer for warm (36°C) air, I'll take it. Here in the shore of Lake Ontario it is -10°C and we expect 1 to 1.5 m of snow fall.
This forum is fantastic thanks to not only the knowledge of the contributors but their patience with young and old newbies. This thread is an example of the impact that their dedication has on new comers.
Regarding the offer for warm (36°C) air, I'll take it. Here in the shore of Lake Ontario it is -10°C and we expect 1 to 1.5 m of snow fall.
Well, I would happily trade some weather with you down under types. I have similar wx as Marmitas, running around -8C. I found myself longingly looking at eucalyptus trees and koalas on Dr_A's site a few weeks ago during a raging blizzard here... Reminded me of the couple of years I lived in California and I could get up on a cool slightly damp morning and smell the eucalyptus - but yes, they burn like heck when lit at 40C.
Thanks to Manuka and Ibenson - I found the Hippy 14M code although a number of searches didn't uncover any 18X LCD code (too many three letter words - I'll have to try your Google trick). Looking at Hippy's code and the wiring diagrams I'm starting to get it. I had also previously scoured the phanderson site - lots of useful stuff - but I never found how to actually use his LCD modules. Don't know if he sends instructions with them... Since there's an active PICaxe LCD thread right now, I'll go over there and ask about that.
Thanks
Thanks to Manuka and Ibenson - I found the Hippy 14M code although a number of searches didn't uncover any 18X LCD code (too many three letter words - I'll have to try your Google trick). Looking at Hippy's code and the wiring diagrams I'm starting to get it. I had also previously scoured the phanderson site - lots of useful stuff - but I never found how to actually use his LCD modules. Don't know if he sends instructions with them... Since there's an active PICaxe LCD thread right now, I'll go over there and ask about that.
Thanks
Meanwhile- back at the HopeRF topic - fellow Kiwi Andrew "BrightSpark" has been working with the TTL HopeRF HM-TR to good effect, & has just sent the following message. Even though it's work in progress I'll show it here raw, as it may assist someone-especially those poor souls shivering in up top blizzards while doing range tests
He's also rustled the level converting circuitry below -schematic to follow.
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Good evening everybody
I read woth a lot of interest this long thread about RF comm between PICAXE.
I've mind mind to build a RF emitter + receivers to pilot my fireworks. Today, I'm doing this by wires, and this costs a lot (min. 50m per firework, very often 20 scenes.....).
I'm thinking to use a emitter with 20 buttons to send an order to 5 different receivers (same frequency) but with different address. Each receiver can switch on 4 firework line. (5*4).
With Picaxe08M and RX.TX should not be so complex.
The ideal is to have a return channel to have the status of each line (OK, NOK, DONE)
In all your RF module described in this thread, which is the best to perform this.
-Max Distance: 200 m LOS
-Freq: 433 or 862 Mhz band
-automatic CRC
-addressing could be done by transmitting for each order some bytes for address+code etc... before the order itself
-Low price
Power consumation is not an issue .
There are soo many different modules !
Thank you for your feedback
Thomas
I read woth a lot of interest this long thread about RF comm between PICAXE.
I've mind mind to build a RF emitter + receivers to pilot my fireworks. Today, I'm doing this by wires, and this costs a lot (min. 50m per firework, very often 20 scenes.....).
I'm thinking to use a emitter with 20 buttons to send an order to 5 different receivers (same frequency) but with different address. Each receiver can switch on 4 firework line. (5*4).
With Picaxe08M and RX.TX should not be so complex.
The ideal is to have a return channel to have the status of each line (OK, NOK, DONE)
In all your RF module described in this thread, which is the best to perform this.
-Max Distance: 200 m LOS
-Freq: 433 or 862 Mhz band
-automatic CRC
-addressing could be done by transmitting for each order some bytes for address+code etc... before the order itself
-Low price
Power consumation is not an issue .
There are soo many different modules !
Thank you for your feedback
Thomas
Fireworks-I'd be wary that some rascal may pinch our wireless ideas for things more explosive! Along with the usual health & safety concerns, this raises a number of meaty ethical issues of course. I can just see the headlines " Hamas firing Picaxe controlled rockets" ...
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BeanieBots
Moderator
"receivers to pilot my fireworks"
Sounds more like guided missiles
Sounds like a nice little GPS project
Sounds more like guided missiles
Sounds like a nice little GPS project
Perhaps ' fellow Kiwi Andrew "BrightSpark" ' (as he is always described by Stan) shouldn't have said "... tests rocketing along" ?
And then aparently you just:
"5/. To just Rx listen hold pin 4 at a steady high and listen for Stan...."
Exaclty why every module design has to "listen for Stan" I really don't know.
Will this be known as the "Breadboard" protocol?
And then we have firework control on-the-cheap...
Of course you can do this Tparvais. Your idea sounds great.
What was the question?
Oh you wanted feedback.
Here it is:
1.As it sounds like you're new then please don't do it near me
2. Please don't do this on the cheap.
3. All I hear on this Forum is cheap, cheap, cheap. Sounds like a bird cage.
4. I wonder if the designers of Cruise and Storm Shadow said "We must get the cheapest Chinese made radio gear possible".
I wonder what ' fellow Kiwi Andrew "BrightSpark" ' would make of that?
And then aparently you just:
"5/. To just Rx listen hold pin 4 at a steady high and listen for Stan...."
Exaclty why every module design has to "listen for Stan" I really don't know.
Will this be known as the "Breadboard" protocol?
And then we have firework control on-the-cheap...
Of course you can do this Tparvais. Your idea sounds great.
What was the question?
Oh you wanted feedback.
Here it is:
1.As it sounds like you're new then please don't do it near me
2. Please don't do this on the cheap.
3. All I hear on this Forum is cheap, cheap, cheap. Sounds like a bird cage.
4. I wonder if the designers of Cruise and Storm Shadow said "We must get the cheapest Chinese made radio gear possible".
I wonder what ' fellow Kiwi Andrew "BrightSpark" ' would make of that?
BeanieBots
Moderator
Dippy, surely you know that "Stan" is the STANdard for rocket launching.
S.T.A.N. (Stable Transmission, Activate Now).
S.T.A.N. (Stable Transmission, Activate Now).
"Year of the Ox" good news regarding those tempting Friendcom 433 units, as the Chinese New Year seems to have so blessed Shenzhen Friendcom that they've gifted me some free samples (quick pix below).
However, although silkscreened FC-711x, they're stickered FC-701 AND web info on either is elusive. Dippy would no doubt consider their QC shoddy for failing to spot "2" - "7" confusion, but I believe their FC211 (2005 vintage) & FC701/711 (late 2008) are totally different devices.
Testing underway as time allows. Stan
Update: Draft "711" .pdf attached,with P.9 & 10 incomplete, revealing that "M" = master & "S" slave. No sign of config. software...
However, although silkscreened FC-711x, they're stickered FC-701 AND web info on either is elusive. Dippy would no doubt consider their QC shoddy for failing to spot "2" - "7" confusion, but I believe their FC211 (2005 vintage) & FC701/711 (late 2008) are totally different devices.
Testing underway as time allows. Stan
Update: Draft "711" .pdf attached,with P.9 & 10 incomplete, revealing that "M" = master & "S" slave. No sign of config. software...
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lbenson
Senior Member
This is their claim (page 6): "in the extreme situation, the battery life of 2500mAH can last more than 8 years for reliable working"
If true, then forget solar--if your low-clocked picaxe doesn't need much juice. Does the turnaround time depend on a very fast microprocessor attached and ready to answer back?
I'm not sure I understand the "M" and "S" designations. Do they correspond to Master and Slave, as per the PDF, or with or without RS232 level shifting, as Stan's image seems to imply.
If true, then forget solar--if your low-clocked picaxe doesn't need much juice. Does the turnaround time depend on a very fast microprocessor attached and ready to answer back?
I'm not sure I understand the "M" and "S" designations. Do they correspond to Master and Slave, as per the PDF, or with or without RS232 level shifting, as Stan's image seems to imply.
It certainly looks as if solar power would be incidental, but I'm also hazy -& until programming s/w turns up will no doubt remain so.
Mmm- wonder if the slaves can communicate with each other? Visions arise of them jointly deciding to boycott the intrusive wakeup calls from their master! Didn't Spartacus rustle up something similar ~2000 years back?
Mmm- wonder if the slaves can communicate with each other? Visions arise of them jointly deciding to boycott the intrusive wakeup calls from their master! Didn't Spartacus rustle up something similar ~2000 years back?
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And, of couse, don't forget the enormous Chinese Public Holidays which are used as an excuse for delay. I'm sure it doesn't really take 13 weeks to get some GLCDs to me does it??
I'm so pleased you've got some freebies for plugging their products Stan. All these posts and magazine articles have paid dividends. I knew there was a reason..... Good on ya!
If I can get in a few Aston-Martin applications for PICAXE do you think that they might....
Hey, maybe they do Free samples...yes, I'll try scrounging. That seems to be the popular technique here.
And, yes, I DO think it's shoddy making errors like that. What other errors have been made....
Tune in folks for another 50 page thread so Stan can get some more freebies.
.....Just kidding I hope it works out fine. I'm sure it will.
I'm so pleased you've got some freebies for plugging their products Stan. All these posts and magazine articles have paid dividends. I knew there was a reason..... Good on ya!
If I can get in a few Aston-Martin applications for PICAXE do you think that they might....
Hey, maybe they do Free samples...yes, I'll try scrounging. That seems to be the popular technique here.
And, yes, I DO think it's shoddy making errors like that. What other errors have been made....
Tune in folks for another 50 page thread so Stan can get some more freebies.
.....Just kidding
I hope it works out fine. I'm sure it will.The Chinese New Year is Jan 26 which happens to also be Australia Day, so we Colonials thoroughly approve of a holiday at this time of the year. Mind you, the Chinese make it a 15 day holiday. Maybe we should copy that? But then again, Christmas and New Year are a good excuse for a holiday too. Try finding a medical specialist between mid December to Mid January!
The instructions manuals for all these modules are worth persevering with, as we are building on some things that are working very well. We have been able to install CP/M from scratch via radio over more than 100 metres and download a Basic interpreter, compiler and Wordstar. Plus interface to picaxe chips. So getting the power consumption down would be icing on the cake of something that is already working.
You are lucky your solar energy is hazy Stan. 41C here a couple of days ago, and they say it is going higher on Saturday.
The instructions manuals for all these modules are worth persevering with, as we are building on some things that are working very well. We have been able to install CP/M from scratch via radio over more than 100 metres and download a Basic interpreter, compiler and Wordstar. Plus interface to picaxe chips. So getting the power consumption down would be icing on the cake of something that is already working.
You are lucky your solar energy is hazy Stan. 41C here a couple of days ago, and they say it is going higher on Saturday.
And you'd thought this topic had hibernated...
I've just trialled Andrew "Brightspark's" 2 x NPN level converting HM-TR config. circuitry, & find it works well with HopeRF's TTL transceivers. These TTL versions are desirably able to "sleep" at ~1µA, while the MAX232 fitted offerings -although easily config. programmed- still sucks quite a few mA. PICAXEs drive either version well (although T2400 is needed for the TTLs instead of the RS232 versions N2400 ),& demand "Down Under" has become stronger for the TTLs also.
As the classic MAX-232 (& associated caps) is just the sort of IC you're always fresh out of, this discrete approach may have mileage for skinflints & schools etc. Any old NPN could probably be used,& R values are just those most PICAXE users will have at hand (330 Ohms LED dropper, 10k READADC pullups etc)- nothing seemed too critical. Such 2 x Si transistor level converters are well known, BUT normally use 1x NPN & 1x PNP, or N-FETs. See => www.botkin.org/dale/rs232_interface.htm which uses dirt cheap 2N7000 FETs. As the TTL config. is usually just an occasional setup activity,low power FET benefits are probably incidental for configuring these HM-TR TTL transceivers.
HopeRF in China have been responsive to diverse bugs that've been pointed out, & have just advised Australian agent (MicroZed) that a software update is on the way. It's unknown if this is for config. or actual HM-TR operation.
EXTRA: INSIGHTS INTO WHO IS USING/NO LONGER USING THESE HOPE UNITS WELCOMED- I'm after a few more case studies for a 2nd SiChip article. Stan
I've just trialled Andrew "Brightspark's" 2 x NPN level converting HM-TR config. circuitry, & find it works well with HopeRF's TTL transceivers. These TTL versions are desirably able to "sleep" at ~1µA, while the MAX232 fitted offerings -although easily config. programmed- still sucks quite a few mA. PICAXEs drive either version well (although T2400 is needed for the TTLs instead of the RS232 versions N2400 ),& demand "Down Under" has become stronger for the TTLs also.
As the classic MAX-232 (& associated caps) is just the sort of IC you're always fresh out of, this discrete approach may have mileage for skinflints & schools etc. Any old NPN could probably be used,& R values are just those most PICAXE users will have at hand (330 Ohms LED dropper, 10k READADC pullups etc)- nothing seemed too critical. Such 2 x Si transistor level converters are well known, BUT normally use 1x NPN & 1x PNP, or N-FETs. See => www.botkin.org/dale/rs232_interface.htm which uses dirt cheap 2N7000 FETs. As the TTL config. is usually just an occasional setup activity,low power FET benefits are probably incidental for configuring these HM-TR TTL transceivers.
HopeRF in China have been responsive to diverse bugs that've been pointed out, & have just advised Australian agent (MicroZed) that a software update is on the way. It's unknown if this is for config. or actual HM-TR operation.
EXTRA: INSIGHTS INTO WHO IS USING/NO LONGER USING THESE HOPE UNITS WELCOMED- I'm after a few more case studies for a 2nd SiChip article. Stan
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Update: I've just noted the HopeRF web site offers Ver 1.1 of their HM-TR transceiver setup utility => http://www.hoperf.com/rf_fsk.asp. Although still ~500k, this now features -gasp!- English as the default startup language, and a useful command activity progress panel. I'm also sure that the modules Rx green SMD LED are now much brighter as well on receive- although the red TX LEDs were always distinctive,these green were always quite dim before! I'll mention these benefits in a HM-TR/TTL ½ duplex article I'm writing for the April "Silicon Chip", & insights into any other merits would be naturally MUCH appreciated. MicroZed- the Australian agent -reports strong demand for these units (especially TTL), & has again sold out. Stan
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This topic is not dead. It is just resting *grin*
Behind the scenes of course, a lot of things are coming together. Just last night I got the final bit of code working that can run any program on any board in a mesh. There are only three bits of code needed to run a minimum mesh and all 3 work independently now - just a matter of bringing them together in one program.
1) send a file from me to another board (xmodem r)
2) Receive a file from another board (xmodem s).
3) Run a program on a particular board by sending messages that may go via many boards to get there.
3) has been the tricky one. At the end of the day the instruction that propogates through the network is very simple:
=alpha myprogram
where alpha is the name of a board, and myprogram is the program to run.
Behind the scenes, messages must only be forwarded once so you need a list of the past messages (10 or more) and you need random delays to forward on, and a serin with a timout is essential. The complete program takes 20k of program space in cp/m when compiled. No doubt when it is all working it might be possible to look at getting it into a picaxe and I think that could be possible.
Picaxe is still an important part of the network because cp/m consumes too much power, so you have a picaxe and a RF transceiver running all the time and the picaxe wakes up the cp/m board when needed.
Back to coding. The end is in sight now!!
Behind the scenes of course, a lot of things are coming together. Just last night I got the final bit of code working that can run any program on any board in a mesh. There are only three bits of code needed to run a minimum mesh and all 3 work independently now - just a matter of bringing them together in one program.
1) send a file from me to another board (xmodem r)
2) Receive a file from another board (xmodem s).
3) Run a program on a particular board by sending messages that may go via many boards to get there.
3) has been the tricky one. At the end of the day the instruction that propogates through the network is very simple:
=alpha myprogram
where alpha is the name of a board, and myprogram is the program to run.
Behind the scenes, messages must only be forwarded once so you need a list of the past messages (10 or more) and you need random delays to forward on, and a serin with a timout is essential. The complete program takes 20k of program space in cp/m when compiled. No doubt when it is all working it might be possible to look at getting it into a picaxe and I think that could be possible.
Picaxe is still an important part of the network because cp/m consumes too much power, so you have a picaxe and a RF transceiver running all the time and the picaxe wakes up the cp/m board when needed.
Back to coding. The end is in sight now!!
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Ah, that is timely. Today the mesh went live with 3 boards. Am adding commands - eg copy a file, rename a file, run a program on a particular board. Able to run a router program now which can copy new copies of itself, and hence do upgrades over the network.
I see this as replicating the functionality of the amateur wireless backbone which was a worldwide data network long before the internet became popular. Repeater nodes can find each other, and in quiet times, exchange data to determine link reliability and the shortest path through the network. I'm working on some theory based on ant trails at the moment.
Where this is heading is a rounter network that works in the background and the user does not have to worry about how it works. I want a user to be able to create a picaxe 'SMS', max 14 bytes, with a destination, just a few bytes of data, and send it into the network and the network works out how to get it there. The 'network' can be pure wireless or can include hops through the internet via a pc. In practice, that could be a box with an LCD display that you take out into the garden and push a button to turn on a sprinkler, or query the status of a pump, or get the level in a tank. Or turn on a lawnmowing robot...
The router boards have 4 RS232 ports, so it is a simple matter of using one of those to link to your hope module/picaxe.
I see a hybrid solution developing here - hope modules for the picaxe to router boards with 14 byte SMS messages, and Yishi boards to handle the back end comms between router boards. Maybe Stocky's long range modems for many kilometres of range.
Today, for the first time, I watched a 20k file propogate through the network, and I must say it was pretty cool to watch.
I see this as replicating the functionality of the amateur wireless backbone which was a worldwide data network long before the internet became popular. Repeater nodes can find each other, and in quiet times, exchange data to determine link reliability and the shortest path through the network. I'm working on some theory based on ant trails at the moment.
Where this is heading is a rounter network that works in the background and the user does not have to worry about how it works. I want a user to be able to create a picaxe 'SMS', max 14 bytes, with a destination, just a few bytes of data, and send it into the network and the network works out how to get it there. The 'network' can be pure wireless or can include hops through the internet via a pc. In practice, that could be a box with an LCD display that you take out into the garden and push a button to turn on a sprinkler, or query the status of a pump, or get the level in a tank. Or turn on a lawnmowing robot...
The router boards have 4 RS232 ports, so it is a simple matter of using one of those to link to your hope module/picaxe.
I see a hybrid solution developing here - hope modules for the picaxe to router boards with 14 byte SMS messages, and Yishi boards to handle the back end comms between router boards. Maybe Stocky's long range modems for many kilometres of range.
Today, for the first time, I watched a 20k file propogate through the network, and I must say it was pretty cool to watch.
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Hi everyone,
This is very interesting stuff.I have tried in the past to get the cheap 433 mhz rf bits to work just sending Temperature data to a pc terminal with no luck.Is there anyone selling the hope rf or the other moduals mentioned in this thread that takes CC or moneyorder?
Thanks
Charlie
This is very interesting stuff.I have tried in the past to get the cheap 433 mhz rf bits to work just sending Temperature data to a pc terminal with no luck.Is there anyone selling the hope rf or the other moduals mentioned in this thread that takes CC or moneyorder?
Thanks
Charlie
Hi lbenson,
Thanks for the reply. The distance is about 100 feet and line of sight. I am wanting to make a desktop thermometer.I have a serial GLCD for the display. I bought some xbee,but there are a little much for this project.I got the 433mhz transmitter and receiver from rentron and there what I am wanting to use if its something that can be done.Also If I can find something that can talk to a rs232 I am considering a desktop app. to monitor temp as well.Thanks.
Thanks for the reply. The distance is about 100 feet and line of sight. I am wanting to make a desktop thermometer.I have a serial GLCD for the display. I bought some xbee,but there are a little much for this project.I got the 433mhz transmitter and receiver from rentron and there what I am wanting to use if its something that can be done.Also If I can find something that can talk to a rs232 I am considering a desktop app. to monitor temp as well.Thanks.
lbenson
Senior Member
Not familiar with the specific parts, but if you don't have interference, they can likely do 100 feet LOS, and RS232 to PC no problem. I don't want to hijack this very interesting thread, tho (and wondering if Andrew/Manuka's new trick could provide VCC to other xmitters), so perhaps start a new thread if you have questions.
Charliem: Check Ebay for Sure Electronics 433 data transceivers => http://cgi.ebay.com/2-pcs-Wireless-RF-Transceiver-433MHz-FSK-Data-Transfer_W0QQitemZ250360307691QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090121?IMSfp=TL090121154001r7035 - prices perhaps good for ~US$30 a pair. See their data sheets => http://www.sure-electronics.net/rf,audio/GP-GC010.pdf
For simple data work over short distances, almost any 433 cheapie will do to get you started. 100 feet LOS should be a breeze (IF NO LOCAL INTERFERNCE...)
For simple data work over short distances, almost any 433 cheapie will do to get you started. 100 feet LOS should be a breeze (IF NO LOCAL INTERFERNCE...)