Re---Hoperf modules

manuka

Senior Member
Michael V- bravo on your very full posting & revealing pix! Between us all we'll no doubt write the sort of HopeRF "how too" that the firm should have tackled. I'll confess to some hair pulling just getting that initial SC article knocked into shape. MicroZed mentions sales are very strong by the way, so we must be doing a good turn to users overall!

Quite OK on the purring, since I'd used it as a simple audible reception indicator to aid coverage audits when in bright sunshine. And speaking of sunshine, some nifty cheap CIS solar PVs may soon be stocked by MicroZed. These will give out ~4V @ 70mA & being CIS (Copper Indium diSelenide) work marvellously in overcast, shaded & hazy conditions. They look a good fit for your Supercap ideas . Stan
 

Michael V

Senior Member
Let's work it out!

Hi Stan, thanks, nice to hear from such a distinguished author. Yes you.

Well, if the Hope data was much much better we'd be paying more for the modules. I'm sure they are doing their best, and i'm sure they have commercial considerations that take priority over hobbyists. Great that we have such passionate people out here in picaxe word (me still being an apprentice). I'm just obsessive, and won't let a machine beat me, especially the really little ones with the i's and o's.

You promised a follow up with the half-duplex thingy. I'll be spending the $8.50 for whatever you write. PS - did anyone point out that on Page 17 of october 2008 , in the config mode diagram you have module pin 5 written as gnd but connected to +5? Cost me some time, but will still spend the $8.50, cause you are good bloke for a kiwi.

I seem to be speaking with David at Microzed frequently, so will be sure to be asking about solar modules.

In the meantime i've been looking up about reference diodes, and decided that LP2950 3V will do just fine for a reference, and cheap and available enough. Via spare ADC pin plus clever coding this will get me the " don't bother to send till you have enough charge" condition.

Thanks again for the encouragement.
Michael
 

Grant Fleming

Senior Member
Hi Michael,

Glad you have your project up and running.

Yes, the old floating pin caught a few of us.
I agree with Stan that the Hope company should have helped it's customers along a little more with all the issues with the modules.
Anyway, think of all we have learnt along the way (even though at times it was frustrating)!
I do like your idea using the supercapacitor, I will try some experiments with one myself.
 

Michael V

Senior Member
Charge Life of Supercap

I changed the code to the following:
Code:
; *******************************
; ***** Temp Data Transmit  *****
; *******************************
;    Filename: 		
;    Date: 			Nov 08
;    File Version: 	
;    Written by: 		Michael Viset
;    Function:		Control transmission of temp data via Hope HM-TR
;    Last Revision:
;    Target PICAXE:	08M	
; ******************************* 

#picaxe08m

symbol temp_byte1 = b8
symbol temp_byte2 = b9
symbol temp_byte3 = b10


Pause 10000

Main:
readtemp12 1,w0	'Reads temp into word variable

w0 = w0*20/32	' converts Temperature word variable into temp X 10
	
'Convert word variable to ascii
bintoascii w0,temp_byte1,temp_byte2,temp_byte3


high 4	' Turns on HM-TR plus Enable High
Pause 1500	'Wait for lights to flash and be ready
'outputs both the word variable (for manipulation)
'and Temp in C with decimal point, direct to PC with hyperterminal
serout 2, N300, (85,76,w0," ",temp_byte1,temp_byte2,".",temp_byte3,13,10)
pause 500	'gives the module time to complete the transmission
low 4
disablebod		'disables brown out detector to save power
sleep 391 		'Low power mode for approx 900 sec 15 minutes = sleep 391
enablebod		'enable 

goto main
This uses sleep as suggested,will power and enable the HM-TR module for a few seconds every 15 minutes. I cheated and charged the supercap up to 5 V with a battery. I waited till night to do this, but in hindsight i could just have unplugged or covered the solar panel, what a dork.

I measured the initial 5V with my multimeter and could see that voltage was already decaying. I received six transmissions over 1.5 hours and then nothing until this morning when there was light, and it kicked in again, in the shade, not direct sunshine. I'd hoped for better. But still, the objective was reliable battery-less transmissions, and i have that. These Super Caps are rated to 70C, so i can put this module in uncomfortably warm places for long periods without destroying batterys.

Is it possible that significant charge is "leaking" via the DS 18B20 part of the circuit?
 

lbenson

Senior Member
Michael_V--I'm not sure it will make a difference in how long after dark your module will transmit, since you spend most of your time in sleep, but you can put your disablebod right at the beginning of the program and never do an enablebod. As I understand it, this lets your 08M run below 3 volts--but your transmitter will have stopped working long before you get there. Kranenborg noted the importance of having all unused inputs tied to 0V to minimize current draw.

It would be interesting to see if "sleep" is as low-power as clocking down to the slowest speed and idling for 15 minutes--I don't recall having seen that comparison. But the drain of the Hope module, when on, may swamp everything. Great idea.

Does anyone know offhand how many milliamp-seconds a 1F supercap should provide at the required voltahge?
 

moxhamj

New Member
A couple of things with supercaps.

First, if you charge them from 5V (say, just put them across your 5V supply), and do that for a minute, it will charge up and when it is charged it will draw very little current.

But if you leave it on 5V for an hour, it will store a lot more charge.

So you might find you get a longer charge if it was charged through the day.

The other thing, which actually goes against the experiment above but which I think is true under certain conditions, is that this capacitor is a capacitor, not a battery, so the volts do equate to the energy in the capacitor. So you can work out the charge state by measuring the volts. You can't do that with a battery because a battery stays at a constant voltage for much of its discharge cycle. So if you have 4.5V on the supercap, you will know you have enough energy for x transmissions.

I guess you can always increase the value of the supercap. They come up from time to time at quite good prices.

Re milliamp seconds, I work back from first principles. A 1 farad capacitor will drop 1 volt per second if you draw 1 amp out of it. V/S=I/C. Supercaps are round the 1F mark.
 

Michael V

Senior Member
Supercaps and HM-TR module

Thanks DrAc
That explains what i saw. I was trying to reprogram the picaxe and I was having trouble after i'd put in the disablebod and went to sleep. It doesn't like reprogramming at that time.

I tried to "discharge" the supercap by shorting it out so I could reprogram before it went to sleep, covering my eyes expecting sparks from the massive energy surge - but there was none. After i discharged ( or thought i did) the voltage kept coming back up on its own, no light around. Obviosly the supercap doesn't completely discharge in a split second, consistent with your comment about charging. So the capacitor charges up and and releases charge slowly. good to know.

Yes this one is indeed a 1 Farad Supercap. It seems to still transmit at around 3.5V, so in that respect The supercap may still be able to deliver milliamps at a voltage where a battery will give up.

LB, I'll connect the unused imputs to ground, i didn't know that was a power eater, and can't quite see how, but i'll just follow all this great advice.

Jaycar have supercaps (2.5V) at 22 and 55 Farads, who knows what for. You would have to use two in series for the 5V, but then the cost per farad, Amp-hr volt/second or whatever keeps coming down. With that sort of energy storage you could operate electro mechanical devices, solenoids, motors etc, all without batteries which will die. These supercaps are supposed to last for over ten years. So apart from getting plain data you use Stan's two way code to get info from a sensor, make a decision, and then remotely open or close a valve, operate an animal feeder etc, pump a certain amount of water, at 1km line of sight, without batteries.

I'll see how long it will go for on a full charge.

Thanks again guys.
 

BCJKiwi

Senior Member
It's a case of RTM - Find the manufacturers data sheet.
Supercaps are relatively indestructible but are not designed to take a direct short.

Just as charging takes some time, so does discharging. The data sheet will specify the maximum discharge rate. There are different designs for different applications.

Just as a Supercap does not behave like a battery (as explained by the Dr.), neither does it behave like a regular capacitor.
 

Michael V

Senior Member
Super Cap and another question

I eventually found the data Sheet - it is an Elna series DB Dynacap - from Jaycar. Doesn't say anything about discharge rate though. The application is intended to be as a backup for microcomputers, cmos, so the current drain is expected to be low i guess. Maybe another regular electrolytic in there as well may be a good idea, but it seems to work as it is.

Yesterday i let it fully charge all day (in the shade) and made no changes (eg inputs to G) and it was still sending data after 3 hours in the dark. This is great.

Another question re the Hope HM-TR module & picaxe.

Stan's informative article is consistent with the Hope Data sheet in that the output from the module, DTX, pin 2, connects directly to a picaxe input pin. This is nice and simple and works. But this output is from the MAX232 chip on the module, and therefore is at idle at - 7V, and swings above 5V during transmissions. The MAX232 Data sheet says the output short circuit current may be 22mA.

When we connect to the picaxe from our computer serial port or usb cable serial port we do so via a 22K resistor. I only noticed this when i was searching around for info on other radio modules. One brand had a circuit that had a 1K resistor between the RS232 driven output and the MCU input pin.

Also, the switch input circuit in the manual has a 1K resistor between the 5V and the input pin, suggesting exposure to raw current may not be such a good idea.

Is it healthy for the Picaxe to have the Hope RS232 output going directly into the picaxe i/o pin? Would it be advisable to put a resistor in there? If so what value? Is the picaxe potentially pulling in (is this "sinking") this current eg 22mA from the Hope module because there is no resistor?

Michael
 

MPep

Senior Member
If you want to set to COM1 again, should you not disable the COMport on the mother-board first under the BIOS??
 

moxhamj

New Member
There are two versions of the Hope module - they do make a TTL version which doesn't have the max232 on board. This decreases the current consumption too. Stocky sent me a couple to test and they work just as well as the max232 ones. They idle high at 5V and the signal is a pulse to 0V. I think that is T polarity.

If you use the ones with the max232 they will idle at - ~9V, as expected, with a signal at +9V. Converting that to picaxe level signals is a bit of a fudge with a 22k/10k network from the hope to the picaxe and with no resistor for the picaxe to the hope, and N polarity.

I've not done it that way - I've been buying max232s off ebay for 50c each and not worrying about the inefficiency of going picaxe <=>max232 <=> bit of wire <=>max232 <=> picaxe/hope. I use D9 plugs for everything and I know that whatever comes out of that D9 is true RS232. I also know that if it is a male plug, the data comes out of pin 3 and if it is a female plug the data comes out of pin 2. The reason RS232 is useful is not so much the fact the signal goes a bit further, but rather that you can put any voltage from -12V to +12V up a pin and not worry about zapping anything, and also that you can plug things together where one device is not powered up, and not get strange things like parasitic powering.

So even though you can interface the hope to the picaxe with a couple of resistors, I'd suggest another max232.
 

manuka

Senior Member
HopeRF in fact was happy to have me rewrite some of their "Chinglish" data sheets, & indeed picked my brain for a few initial phrases, but then just parked assorted drafts & circuitry I sent thru. OK - us Kiwis may speak funny, but our written work is usually acceptably close to the Queen's English! Their site => http://www.hoperf.com/pro/HM-TR.html shows things still unchanged, with glaring typo's ("pinch" instead of "pitch") abounding. Aside from babies traditional damp issues (!), I'm still awaiting clarification on what particular "baby monitoring" application they had in mind too.

I'd no problems with PICAXE sinking 22mA, but appreciate the resistor need. Have others found this? Sorry if indeed one of those pins was shown incorrectly, as I'm always MOST methodical about proof reading. SC run things via an admirable pre publication ".pdf draft back to the writer" system that's great for such detective work.

Further HopeRF SC article possibly March 2009- I've been too busy with other activities to do it full justice yet. Stan
 
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manuka

Senior Member
Before taming a further HopeRf SiChip article I'm looking at getting my hands on at least some Chinese FRIENDCOM offerings . These Hope alternative 433 tx/rx of course caught our eye some months back, but we weren't able to gain an overview of "what's best". All of their units seem to offer valuable "wake on RF" features.

A glance at their site shows much the same bewildering range => http://www.friendcom.com/En/index.htm, but that FC-711 we got excited about seems now off the radar. Perhaps their FC-211 range are the most suitable => http://www.friendcom.com/En/FC211AP.htm .

Alibaba HOWEVER reveals numerous similar Chinese 433 Mhz data offerings, & given the Aus/NZ power limit of 25mW, my main criteria for 433 MHz data unit testing are a sensitive receiver & low current "wake on signal" feature- plus a realistic minimum order/p&p! Hence Yishi's => http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/209536711/RF_modules_YS_1100U_High_data/showimage.html and =>http://www.yishi.net.cn/product_detail.asp?id=47&fid=209 or Hac's => http://haccom.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008827797252/Homepage.htm may have appeal too? The field is near overwhelming!

To be honest these 433 offerings all tend to look variations on a theme, but like the new car market, some will be "a can of worms" while others never miss a beat. Hence do we keep going with Hope - especially since MicroZed is now the agency- and pool our collective wisdom about the Hope quirks & workarounds, or trial other offerings?

Let me know if still interested- Stan
 
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Michael V

Senior Member
More HM-RF quirks and Friendcom

I made the move from breadboard to stripboard (photos) so i could conduct a trial on site yesterday. Box not shown. The objective is to collect temperature data from many points on a big 650 tonne piece of mining machinery but without running wires which need to be connected (aargh), cable tied, run distances etc, with difficult access, and no batteries to fail in the heat. Well, pleased to report that the Hope RF module powered by small solar cell and 1 Farad Super Cap did this OK, over ranges of less than 50m with but tons of steel in the way, and with the cute little rubber duck aerials OK. I had no need to test further distance, only for the metal interference and without direct line of sight. I was thinking of using one of Stan's home made Yagis at a central pt if i needed to.

But, as we have seen, the enable pin doesn't actually switch it into sleep mode, i used the NPN - PNP high side switch combo to switch + 5V and Enable, with a duty of about 1.5 seconds every 30 seconds. It was pretty sunny (and hot) yesterday, but the solar panel was not in direct sunlight.

The difference with this circuit and the circuit in my previous post is that the serial out pin no 7 is also used as the serout for the input to RXD of the HM-TR module. I figured this would give me a bit more flexibility, as it would free up an ADC pin for other devious purposes, plus by using SERTXD and "setfreq m8" i could output at Baud Rate of 9600. This would allow use of the HM-TR under default settings, without using setup at all. This could be the fallback in case the HM-TR inexplicably does not hold its settings, a quirk that many of us have now seen. Also, if needed i could test the effect of baud rate on transmission distance. I don't have a handle on that yet.

Well i carefully programmed my modules for Baud 300 (twice and read twice), then put them into their respective circuits, with no pins esp config floating, config was ground. Used serout n300. This worked OK, then i put in a variation to the picaxe program, and started getting garbage or nothing. But I'd locked everything down. How could this be?

I can only think that the serial download into the picaxe that also went to the HM-TR DRX and confused it, and it reverted to default. Does that make any sense?

I changed the configuration of the receiving module to 9600, and started receiving data again. Note here that i received data by direct connection of the HM-TR to the computer serial interface, which can be set to 9600 easily. If i was relying on another picaxe i would have been buggered. In theory you can receive at 9600 via the serial input pin of a picaxe 28X1 using SERRXD and setfreq m8, which is what i will have to do if i want reliability, it seems. But now we are losing the simplicity which was one of the features of Stan's article in Si Chip anyway. Maybe interfacing via RS232 as per DrAcs suggestion may be more reliable.

Here's the thing- I am still using serout n300 to input to the HM-TR, but it is apparently transmitting at 9600, because that's what i am receiving at. (the module is soldered in to the transmitter, i can't check it). How does that work? I thought that was the whole point of setting the frequency was that they had to be matched.

Anyway, the quirky Baud rate resets don't spell reliability to me. I was going to use the 28X as a receiver anyway, since this has a timeout feature that allows the program to progress if no data is received. It seems in this particular enviroment it works at 9600, but i'm losing whatever range benefit comes from the lower baud rate.

The Friendcom FC211SP modules come supplied also as 9600, also user configurable, but is this any more reliable than the hope modules? The data sheet talks about "Command frame format", is this only done through the interface software, or maybe the picaxe can do it?

Control via the Picaxe can be to 1) keep these parameters in check, in case of quirky resets, and 2) vary parameters according to circumstances - could be a benefit. If the "idle" works the way that "config" is suppoosed to on the HM-TR then it will be a lot easier to manage power in low power situations, no high side switches, only a high or low direct from the picaxe. Maybe the HM-TR control chip is remarkably similar to the Friendcom control chip, seeing thet both companys are in the same town in China.

Power consumption of FC-211 is much higher than HM-TR, but in the scheme of things not that much at all, if you want the additional range. Receiver more sensitive, must be beneficial for two way communication.

David at Microzed being the local agent is very handy, you just make a phone call in the morning and you get your stuff nicely packaged in the mail the next day. At $45 a pair including antennas they are a bargain. Also as quirks arise he can tell people and put things on his web site - eg the comment about "if ??? click on English" must be a time saver for many. I'm going to make up a few prototype modules, but operating at 9600 because of reset reliability, and with the PNP NPN combo (i should not have to use) to manage power.

Having said that, I want to make it easier and simple and reliable, and the Friendcom modues suggest that they will remove these quirks, if you believe the chinglish. Also there are a couple of extra lights in there to connect to the picaxe. Stan, I'd like to have a go at a couple of these, what do i have to do? Who do i talk to? Can do paypal, direct transfer, phone David, whatever.

RFMA are regular advertisers in Si chip. Have you considered them at all? Are their modules just too expensive for a hobbyist, or not picaxe friendly?
 

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moxhamj

New Member
I'm working through your long post...

Lots of questions and I'm not sure of all the answers.

I guess if it is not working, then *simplify*. The first thing I'd do is swap out the solar supply for a regulated supply. What if the volts are dropping on a transmit, and the hope module drops out before the picaxe module does. Then as the volts rise again after a transmit, the hope module will come on and maybe the data coming from the picaxe will be misinterpreted as a reprogram? I'm only guessing here, but I've not had the resetting baud rate problem using regulated supplies and using a system where there is at least a 1 second delay after startup before anything is sent.

The other issue is the baud rate that the module actually sends at. I'd like to know more about that - does it transmit RF at the baud rate or at 9600?

I've done experiments at 4800 and found that the hope module could not keep up - it needed a pause every 30 bytes to resend all its data in its buffer and I don't think it can send RF and receive the next byte at the same time. I've tried 19200 and got dropped characters, but I'm not sure if that is a timing issue or a range issue. I'm probably going to go for 9600, but that is between CP/M boards. Picaxe needs to be slower if you want to use the smaller picaxes.

Manuka has found a whole range of fantastic modules from a number of suppliers. He might post the list if you ask him nicely. Some look better than the Hope ones. But we don't yet know the price/volume etc and there is the ever present language barrier, especially when technical questions come up.
 

manuka

Senior Member
Michael V: Thanks for that long posting! Do you really need HopeRF transceivers for just 50m however ? Even the cheap Jaycar tx/rx units may well do at such a short distance. Additionally "slow is usually better" for PICAXE style wireless data, & I've run most setups at a pedestrian 1200 or even 300 bps. In fact I've just had a personal Australian email about a son in law with a similar application need - was it related to yours?

But even as we speak "Tina" from Shenzhen Yishi advices their YS-1100U are US$17 (c/w stubby antenna), but that they only can be bought by TT or WU. She quoted ~US$95 (which includes p&p) for 4 to be sent to Aus/NZ. I have absolutely no knowledge of their performance ( or quirks), but they strike me as possibly badge engineered, & very akin to HopeRF. In a shootout things may well boil down to how friendly the programming user interface is! However the Yishi offerings use Gaussian FSK (GFSK) for pulse shaping which thus reduces spectral width ( & thereby yielding multi 433 MHz channels). Check my earlier posting for their specs. Anyone want to share/evaluate/(or pay!) ?? Stan
 

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moxhamj

New Member
They go to 115 baud too. But checking the specs a bit more:
*Receiving sensitivity: -108 dBm (@9600bps)

-112 dBm (@1200bps);

Which suggests slow baud rates give longer range. I wonder if this is a generic property of these sorts of modules? And I wonder what it means in practice. 108 to 112 is 6db. The YS1020 quotes 500m (BER=10-3@9600bps); 800m (BER=10-3@1200bps);

Price seems good. Count me in for a couple Stan please.

Yishi also seem to have a range of modules that increase in power. That could be handy if you need a drop in solution where the range isn't quite there.

Another generic feature of these modules seems to be 'sleep', but I think it is a fake sleep in that it just turns the module off. 'wake on rf signal' does not seem to be a feature. So sleep is really no different to powering the module with a high side BC557.
 

Michael V

Senior Member
Im in!

Hi Guys,
I meant to be comprehensive, sorry it was so long.

DrAc, re the solar supply vs the regulated supply, i didn't have the the reset error while it was losing power, it kept transmitting accurately at 300 till it ran out of steam, a few times. It reset with the picaxe download (i think) but power at that point would have been declining. But one of the key objectives is battery-less, so have to persevere with that, but i do take your point that low power could be a factor.

It is transmitting at 9600 even though i'm sending to the module at 300, the red light flashes the transmission. Weird. I know it is 9600 because if i set the receiver to 300 i get nothing, but i get 9600 on Tera Term on the PC over 100m through walls.

The amount of data i want to send is really miniscule, it just has to be able to get through in an industrial environment with lots of steel, power, obstructions and all that. The idea of a tranceiver appealed, so that i could in some way after wake up signal a number of devices to "read" at the same time roughly, which ruled the Jaycar units out. 300 Baud is great, if it gives more distance and helps get around big steel objects, plus no one else is likely to be using it. But it has to stay there!

Just looking at the Yishi, inc the nice stubby aerial, great for a compact unit, and has a metal plate in there which i guess id for RF interference. I wonder how they configure with no config pin, and exactly what "digital grounding" is. Seems like you only connect TX RX +5 and G. Operation down to 3.3V (they say) so suits the Supercap power option. Must be a little different to the hope module then, although that still seems to work at around 3.5 to 4 V with the super Cap.

Also noticing a transmit power of 50mW - isn't there some rule that says it is supposed to be below 25mW in Aus? I can't see how power output is adjustible, maybe you have to wait for the CD to find out. You'd think they could just email the .exe file.

The multi channel option sounds like it could be useful.

As DrAc points out it the Yishi may be a fake sleep like the HM-TR sleep that still draws 15mA, which is why i put in the high side switch as well. Re the BC557, i used the PN200 PNP from Jaycar, and am going to try a BS250 P channel jfet, they are also in a TO-92 and are about $1. I figure the FET will minimise voltage drop and therefore optimise current and power output.

Friendcom suggests their sleep (idle) is a real sleep, but this may also be the same thing. I guess these guys are selling into the same markets, so features and shortfalls are going to be similar. Is Friendcom off the Radar?

Stan,
Whichever one you decide on i'll have three, its worth it for the experiment. Plus when i throw in the words "Gaussian Frequency Shift Keying" i'll be the talk of the Christmas party - its not easy to say and no one else will have a clue what that means either. I'll find a way to make it tax deductible. Last time i did a TT to China it cost about $30 i think, plus a half hour at the bank. Paypal is soooo much more convenient. What is the deal, do we pay you and you pay them or what? Would it help if i organised it from here?

Also note Yishi have a range of antennas as well, if they are the right frequency and price they could be worth playing with - but will never put the cotanga to shame i suspect.

Michael

Whoops, i've been long again.
 

Michael V

Senior Member
Yishi

User interface looks pretty easy, also has its own terminal emulator. Less than 1 mB, can be emailed. I have it running on Vista. Only connection is with TX and RX and G, so it is a little easiter than the HM-TR module. There seems no facility to limit power though. Can we use this 50mW device in Australia?
 

moxhamj

New Member
Friendcom are still on the radar. Just haven't had much luck communicating with them re technical aspects/samples/instructions. How do you phrase the question in simple Engrish; "How do you wake sleeping unit with an RF signal?"

The bit about 300 and 9600 seems very strange. You mean one is programmed for 300 and one is programmed for 9600 and the data still goes through?

I'm trying to get my head round a company that has 30 employees and an annual turnover of $200,000 to $300,000pa. That is a salary of <$10,000 per employee. No wonder these units are such good value. Grab 'em before the Chinese decide to float their currency!

I'm also intrigued as to why lowering the baud rate increases the range. The only clue to that one is a scope trace I looked at once from a raw RF unit which was at max range - the corners on the square wave started being rounded off. So I guess short pulses will get rounded to zero in the end. It does kind of suggest a more robust signal at 300 baud. Anyone keen to do some range tests?

I'm working on trying to standardise a board so it can use any/all of these boards. I'm going towards hand soldering a hope/other module to a standard D9, then a seperate DC plug for 5V. 'Tis tempting sometimes to put a 5V supply through one of the D9 pins but it would be non standard and I think I'd regret it. Also I'm sticking to D9 for all serial connections rather than the picaxe 3 pin stereo plug. I've discovered IDC crimping which is much faster than soldering up plugs, and more mechanically robust too.
 

manuka

Senior Member
To me, the most frustrating aspect of UHF products from these Chinese RF firms relates to the items very low on line profile. The firms themselves are visible & responsive enough of course. A quick Google of even HopeRF shows us PICAXErs probably the main users-& it's not as if China is web ignorant! We surely can't be the only ones trying to tame UHF wireless data comms? Where's the user feedback,case studies & product "reputation"?

Anyway-here's a summary now of the HAC offering. This caught my eye for it's outstanding receiver sensitivity.Prices etc unknown.

EXTRA: I'm floating thoughts past a (NZ government) R&D instrumentation mate of my rustling up a general purpose telemetry unit based around one of these 433 offerings. The idea is that I do some Xmas taming & prototyping in return for them purchasing the hardware. He's already musing PICAXE ADC reading (especially humidity) anyway,particularly applications relating to food/timber drying & "leaky building" dampness profiles. Stan
 

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lbenson

Senior Member
Stan or anyone,

The HAC unit you reference speaks of power output of 100mW, (17/20dBm optional). Your note hints at 1/2W tx power permitted in NZ for certain frequencies and uses. US code section 15.231 (Periodic operation in the band 40.66&#8211;40.70 MHz and above 70 MHz) speaks of &#8220;field strength of fundamental&#8221; in the 260&#8211;470mHz range of 13,750 to 12,500 microvolts/meter and of 1,500 to 5,000 microvolts/meter.

How do these different measurements relate: 100mW power; 20dBm; 1/2W; 5,000 microvolts/meter. I don&#8217;t know enough to figure out which are apples and which are oranges.
 

manuka

Senior Member
Dr-A: Yes-impressive, but it's easy to toss round numbers, & of course this should be a NEGATIVE value, & thus -122dBm . If they make a mistake with that crucial number, then just what other specs have they fudged as well.

Ibenson: Our main wireless data/PICAXE interest has been on 433 MHz (actually 433.05 to 434.79MHz with ~1½ MHz BW),which is pretty much globally licence free - the only reg. relating to NZ/Aus on this LIPD (Low Interference Potential Devices) band is that the transmitter power should not exceed 25mW ( ~14dBm). It seems as if the HAC tx can be at least throttled back to a blistering 50mW (~17dBm), so "if need be" a simple 3dB tx antenuator could be further used to bring to legal levels. Are you up with log theory? A 3dB gain is equiv. to doubling the mW power. See conversions => http://www.aubraux.com/design/milli-watts-to-dbm-calculator.php

EXTRA: US outlet Sparkfun apparently handles the (older?) HAC-UM12 at ~US$44.
 
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manuka

Senior Member
Brains trust HopeRF &quot;tweaks&quot; gleaned so far

I've just run thru' topic postings, & herewith raw findings based on the exteriences we've had with these HopeRF HM-TR data units. Please add extra as a fresh post, or QUOTE any mods, so that I can progressively BOLD TYPE edit. As well as posting at www.picaxe.orconhosting.net.nz/hoperf.htm I'll let David at Microzed have this eventually as a Xmas present! Stan
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* As a general principle no Hope pin should ever be floating, either when running or when programming.

* tie pin 6 to the supply rail.

* I'd left the Config pin hanging, and now it is wired to ground

* Warning about turning off the power during data transmission! Config. corruption may happen if the units are turned off when they are doing something- turn them off when in an idle state.

* Do not have the Picaxe programming software running or even minimized, as the Hope config program gets all upset.

* Click on the English button to remove the Config editor ? marks.

* PA Level is power output of RF section

* the low drain sleep mode is only going to be experienced with the TTL version, as the on board MAX-232 always draws current if fitted

*re power consumption - when the HM-TR wasnt TX'ing or RX'ing I had the sleep pin toggling at about 10% duty cycle - as long as first TX is long enough it hears it.

* Received data corruption can arise when the signal is TOO STRONG - try moving units apart a minimum of 10m - mine started to work 100% then

* Comm port 1 is the default-the Hope Setup utility is great as long as you have a COM 1.

* In XP....plug in USB to serial adapter, go to device manager/ports (COM & LPT)/double click on port to be changed/port settings/advanced/change COM num/click ok.
Exit then re-enter device manager to see that the COM port is now changed.

* the Hopes tend to only output DATA if they receive DATA, & the TX 32 byte buffer must be filled OR a short break experienced.

* dump out continuous data at any baud rate (eg 4800 to 19k) to see if it can handle a continuous stream. Hope can't - it needs a short break every 32 bytes (I made it 30 bytes just to be sure). If a tx can handle continuous data it can act as a drop in wire replacement.

* the "revert to 315 Mhz" trap when reading in the utility. You have to click "read" at least twice, then a few more to make sure.

* "Sleep" via a high side switch, where you use a NPN Transisor to turn on a PNP Transistor.

* note the importance of having all unused PICAXE inputs tied to 0V to minimize current draw.
 
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moxhamj

New Member
Indeed, much collective wisdom there. Any chance of all those points finding their way onto the Microzed site?

addit: is the "revert to 325" meant to read "revert to 315?" That was what mine did...
 

manuka

Senior Member
That 325/315 tweaked. Yes- after editing I'll shoot to MicroZed ( & HopeRF!). Has anyone worked hru' the config. program's B/W or "parallel capacitor" effects? Stan
 
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Michael V

Senior Member
Great Summary and Yishi

Great Summary Stan,
I agree with Drac, is there a way of putting together a .PDF file of these points for David At Microzed to link to? It would help everyone.

In the meantime i've been doing more work on the Yishi Offerings. http://www.yishi.net.cn/index.asp?id=47 The YS-1100u is a 50 mW module, and from what i am gleaning from this thread, twice the power of the 25mW allowed in Australia. Twice the power is 3 dB, i get that because dB is based on log to base 10.(do they still teach that?) At $17US with Aerial ( plus order Quantities, freight) if this does what it is supposed to it is a good buy and a great tool in the inventory.

SO what is a 3db RF attenuator? I Know that aerials and Yagis can increase db, but never heard on an attenuator. Is this some sort of un-Yagi?

I received the programming file, <1mb, emailable if you want it, and it is pretty simple to use. Also the "manual" wjhich is more a data sheet than a manual, with chinglish. There is no config pin, its all done through the TX and RX. The Yishi has 16 selectable "channels" around the 433mHz, and you can select the com port your cable is connected to, and it is in english. It has an inbuilt Hyperterminal like emulator, so seems more flexible than the hope module but easy to use.

I got all excited about their second offering, the YS1020U. This comes as optional TTL, RS485, RS232 all for the same price, also comes with Antenna, for $US 23 (plus plus) This is only 10mW, but somehow has an open air range of 500m at 9600bps and 800m at 1200bps (lowest speed). Thats more than the HM-TR which is 25mW. I asked how they did this, but i was on line with the sales person rather than a technical person. Something about the electronics. This is how they tackle markets where there is a 10mW limit.

Thje YS1020U also has nine pins, both RS232 and TTL RX and TX, so you can play with both. Maybe you can remove the RS232 to save power if you end up preferring to going that way. There is a "sleep" pin, and the manual says if it is low it is only 20 uA. But Hope say that too. And the "digital ground" is the ground you use when you connect it to the computer, i don't know why that would be different. Voltage input range 3.3 - 5V, very Picaxe friendly.

I jumped the gun and ordered a few, as well as a few of the YS1100 units, plus a few extra antennas which are cheap cheap. Will have a couple of modules spare if you are really desperate to personally evaluate, maybe alongside the Friendcom or other units.

I'll let you know how i get on.

Stan,
maybe to add to the tips list, effect of baud rate on range.

Michael

PS - the bloke who makes those little red plastic caps is doing OK.
 

stocky

Senior Member
That 325/315 tweaked. Yes- after editing I'll shoot to MicroZed ( & HopeRF!). Has anyone worked hru' the config. program's B/W or "parallel capacitor" effects? Stan
Once i get settled in my new premises I can probably run some tests on my rf comms analyser to check a whole heap of stuff :)
 

manuka

Senior Member
MichaelV: Mate- way to go! While we've all been pondering the paper work,you've bitten the bullet & ordered. How did you pay? How can WE pay you?

That other 1020U Yishi looks of interest but it's 2005 vintage, so may be "junior" to the 1100U. How about you shoot some to Dr-A in Adelaide after your initial play, then he can zip them to me in NZ. By that time Stocky should have his new workshop up & running for me to send to him, & finally back to you ( if we haven't bought off you by then).

RF attenuators are usually just 3 resistors in "pi" or " T" array. Of course receiver signals will also be attenuated
 

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Michael V

Senior Member
Modules

Come to mention it the YS 1100 U was referred to as a "new Product" on e-chat.

Payment was by Western Union through the net, $28 transfer fee and a whole lot of mucking around. Delivery by DHL, supposed to be within a week.

Happy to send some through, and will send private email requesting details.

Payment? The great advice i have been getting from you blokes is enough payment.

Would like a bit more detail on that three resistor attenuator thingy, and how that could be fitted to such a module. If that's all it takes to get the newer cheaper units legal then that might be the way to go.

Michael
 

moxhamj

New Member
Aaargh. Not Western Union?! No, seriously, that is the favoured payment method for Nigerian Scammers. Coz it is untraceable.

But if these modules work out as described, I'd maybe suggest someone like Microzed as the distributers. I'm happy to pay a distributer their cut for the ease of transaction etc.
 

stocky

Senior Member
Just keep pushing PAYPAL at them - they will finally come round :)

I tell them I am in country area with no bank or WU office and PAYPAL is only option I have
 

Michael V

Senior Member
Transactions from Vishi

Hi Guys,
TT (Telegraphic Transfer, $35) was going to be more of a hassle, but i take the point about Western Union & Scammers, they do warn you for that. I should push Paypal, it is so much more convenient for me also. I was in a hurry to get going, i wanted to make sure I had something to work on over christmas when every thing else is quiet.

Asking payment of what would only be a few hundred dollars for something as obscure (to most) as RF modules did not seem to be the way a scammer might operate. I limit my risk by limiting the size of the transaction, as per anything on eBay. I would warn others to do the same.

I have ordered enough for you guys to play with, so will send them through to DrAc to send to Manuka to send to Stocky, who will no doubt do a better job of any evaluation than i ever could. I'm excited just to get the data coming through around buildings and big metal objects.

Watch this space.

And the resistor attenuator thingy? how would that work?
 

manuka

Senior Member
Have just heard from HAC (who DO PAYPAL !) concerning their HAC-UAN433 I'd mentioned at posting #102. These darlings are not cheap (US$37 each 1 offs) with similar freight, but may well be the answer to diverse prayers - if you can justify UD$100 for a sample pair. PM me for further insights. Stan

Extra: Check insights into classic "resistor attenuator thingy" => http://www.marcspages.co.uk/tech/atten.htm
 
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moxhamj

New Member
Hmm, $37US. I suspect $/metre with the range they still may work out the cheapest. The paypal is a huge plus. It makes purchase direct from the manufacturer a lot more attractive. Do you know what they charge for shipping (when you say 'similar' - does that mean $37US?!)
 

manuka

Senior Member
Dr_A: Shenzhen HAC's "Nancy" was talking US$33 freight to Aus/NZ for a HAC-UAN433 pair. I've stressed to her that we are looking at professional applications, & need reviews/case studies etc first. However your "PayPal" urges may have already progressed to the send stage - refer your email for more insights. Stocky- are you still interested? Stan
 

moxhamj

New Member
Manuka - already sent off the payment. The modules are being rushed to me as we speak!

Hopefully I'll have room in the shed. But no problem if I run out of space - Stocky has heaps of spare space in his new premises - I'll just send him all my stuff *grin*.
 
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