A virtual breadboard
- Thread starter moxhamj
- Start date
For those looking for Veroboard tools (and to save extending this VBB program to include veroboard), have found this free program quite useful, if a little complex to get started with;
http://www.heyrick.co.uk/software/verodes/
http://www.heyrick.co.uk/software/verodes/
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Mycroft2152
Senior Member
Or Veecad, as mentioned back in post #23
There are a number of veroboard / stripboard editors out there.
You can even lay out breadboards with DIPTRACE.
hippy
Ex-Staff (retired)
What’s an ‘embedded’ application?
Usually any software which runs on a processor which is contained within the device it's used with and provides the functionality of that device. For example; washing machine controllers, missile guidance systems, WiFi router software, vehicle engine management systems, mobile phone software.
Usually any software which runs on a processor which is contained within the device it's used with and provides the functionality of that device. For example; washing machine controllers, missile guidance systems, WiFi router software, vehicle engine management systems, mobile phone software.
"Embedded " applications often conjure up mystery & status, but (as Hippy lucidly states) near trivial devices abound, & at a micro level most of us PICAXErs are almost overqualified.
But-come in Dippy! Time for you dish out some punishment- be inspired via => http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/columnists/miles-kington/miles-kington-why-the-british-love-nothing-more-than-a-current-pun-452631.html.
Sigh-break time over-back at the thread topic. The VBB name may clash with a $$$ simulator product, & have to be changed. Mmm-does emBREADded teasingly appeal?
Vero = ZERO. I cut my teeth on vero board over 40 years ago, & rarely now consider it for anything more than casual soldering. IMHO it's a pain compared with breadboard style soldered prototyping layouts. Stan.
But-come in Dippy! Time for you dish out some punishment- be inspired via => http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/columnists/miles-kington/miles-kington-why-the-british-love-nothing-more-than-a-current-pun-452631.html.
Sigh-break time over-back at the thread topic. The VBB name may clash with a $$$ simulator product, & have to be changed. Mmm-does emBREADded teasingly appeal?
Vero = ZERO. I cut my teeth on vero board over 40 years ago, & rarely now consider it for anything more than casual soldering. IMHO it's a pain compared with breadboard style soldered prototyping layouts. Stan.
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BeanieBots
Moderator
manuka;102402Vero = ZERO.[/QUOTE said:
Uh oh! Handbags being sharpened...
Surely BreadBoard vs Vero is yet another case of Horses For Courses?
Breadboard is ideal for a new design, stick it in, does it work? Nah, pull it out and move it round.
It's also ideal for testing an idea or demonstration.
Can't get much easier.
For simple stuff and for more experienced users then they can go to vero/strip.
It has many physcial advantages over breadboard.
No point arguing when they have 2 different raison d'etres, surely?
But feel free to carry on as I find it highly amusing
When u get really good you can do straight CAD->PCB.
Embedded etc.
I got no issue with jargon, it just GMS when people use jargon at newbies who are obviously newbies.
Some use it out of habit, some use it to try and impress - judge for yourself
But, back to the thread.
This thing is quite impressive. I'm amazed how long this thread has gone on for.
But for me, who prefers to design/simulate by CAD, I'll stick to real breadboard with real components and a brand new felt tip pen.
For me it is pointless as I can't see why, other than demo, I'd ever want to use it.
Anyway, I hope this causes another argument as I enjoy them.
Surely BreadBoard vs Vero is yet another case of Horses For Courses?
Breadboard is ideal for a new design, stick it in, does it work? Nah, pull it out and move it round.
It's also ideal for testing an idea or demonstration.
Can't get much easier.
For simple stuff and for more experienced users then they can go to vero/strip.
It has many physcial advantages over breadboard.
No point arguing when they have 2 different raison d'etres, surely?
But feel free to carry on as I find it highly amusing
When u get really good you can do straight CAD->PCB.
Embedded etc.
I got no issue with jargon, it just GMS when people use jargon at newbies who are obviously newbies.
Some use it out of habit, some use it to try and impress - judge for yourself
But, back to the thread.
This thing is quite impressive. I'm amazed how long this thread has gone on for.
But for me, who prefers to design/simulate by CAD, I'll stick to real breadboard with real components and a brand new felt tip pen.
For me it is pointless as I can't see why, other than demo, I'd ever want to use it.
Anyway, I hope this causes another argument as I enjoy them.
Mycroft2152
Senior Member
Dippy,
You won't get an argument from me.
It is a cute little app, but of very limited use in the real world.
I could only see a teacher using it with group of 12 year olds. Make your breadboard look like the pretty picture....
Myc
One really great use, methinks, is here on the forum. How many times have one of us requested a wiring diagram, photograph of the circuit, etc.?
This would be a nice visual aid that could eliminate some miscommunication. Frankly, many of my breadboards tend to look like a rat's nest, as I just grabe a wire long enough to fit (usually too long) and plug 'er in. This would let me play, mntally, on the confuser first to visualize out what I am going to do (which I frequently am doing anyway) and then go to the actual physical world with more than a vague idea of schematic in my head. Kind of like outlining before writing a longish article or paper.....
It would also work with a teacher and 12 year olds, though.
Cheers,
Wreno
By the way, Stan, loved the article on puns.
This would be a nice visual aid that could eliminate some miscommunication. Frankly, many of my breadboards tend to look like a rat's nest, as I just grabe a wire long enough to fit (usually too long) and plug 'er in. This would let me play, mntally, on the confuser first to visualize out what I am going to do (which I frequently am doing anyway) and then go to the actual physical world with more than a vague idea of schematic in my head. Kind of like outlining before writing a longish article or paper.....
It would also work with a teacher and 12 year olds, though.
Cheers,
Wreno
By the way, Stan, loved the article on puns.
Mycroft2152
Senior Member
It is still a lot of extra work.
It makes far more sense to draw up the schematic and layout directly from it
This is from work I did with DIPTRACE on the Gadget Gangster Father's Day Contest.
No, it's not my entry. Just a test of using DIPTRACE to do layouts on a proto-typing board.
It makes far more sense to draw up the schematic and layout directly from it
This is from work I did with DIPTRACE on the Gadget Gangster Father's Day Contest.
No, it's not my entry. Just a test of using DIPTRACE to do layouts on a proto-typing board.
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Mycroft2152
Senior Member
Mycroft2152
Senior Member
Yup, I see another Nesbit coming along.
Since I'm still waiting for my BB and jumpers to arrive, I don't think I'm qualified to pass neither comment nor judgement . I'll give the new BB a try, after all, that's what you all told me to do, yes ? While waiting for the BB, I've completed another "proto" final PCB and it again actually worked.... now where does that leave me ? No BB to try. No VBB on the lappy.... this thread is interesting though....
. I'll give the new BB a try, after all, that's what you all told me to do, yes ? While waiting for the BB, I've completed another "proto" final PCB and it again actually worked.... now where does that leave me ? No BB to try. No VBB on the lappy.... this thread is interesting though....Re the Veroboard options - only raised this in an attempt to keep the VBB project from escalating out of control!
Flagged the veecad option for reasons I no longer recall as verodes seemed to work better for me.
Actually do most of my design work on 5mm squared graph paper - quick and easy to sort out but when I want to improve the documentation and/or sort out the detail of the veroboard layout, find veecad useful. The track side view is helpful when it comes time to cut all those tracks in the right places.
Feel the VBB serves a different purpose but would not bother with it unless the board size is much bigger than Manuka's 'Schools standard'
Flagged the veecad option for reasons I no longer recall as verodes seemed to work better for me.
Actually do most of my design work on 5mm squared graph paper - quick and easy to sort out but when I want to improve the documentation and/or sort out the detail of the veroboard layout, find veecad useful. The track side view is helpful when it comes time to cut all those tracks in the right places.
Feel the VBB serves a different purpose but would not bother with it unless the board size is much bigger than Manuka's 'Schools standard'
You old hands may forget the learning curve pain "hands on" electronic newbies often endure, & the hassles concentious educators accordingly experience.
I've had 12 yo's. who hardly know how to hold tools, 18 yo. who have such caffeine nerves that they can't even strip a wire, 22 yo. new immigrants with mediocre English, 25 yo spaced out on something ( he spent 30 mins just looking at a colourful electrolytic) ,sleep deprived 30 yo. with a new baby & a 2nd job to pay the bills, & 50 yo. with shot closeup vision. Yes- all in the same ("do my bit for the faculty" ) hobby class once, & the very evening that the photocopier broke down + the building security misbehaved! Well- OK- it was 30 years back, but I recall the hassles VERY clearly... ( Yes- the coffee was cold too)
Lucid versatile aids that clarify things, ease the instructors work load , boost the PR of the institution (as a take home freebie maybe?) AND encourage/stimulate the learner are a winner in my books. Stan.
I've had 12 yo's. who hardly know how to hold tools, 18 yo. who have such caffeine nerves that they can't even strip a wire, 22 yo. new immigrants with mediocre English, 25 yo spaced out on something ( he spent 30 mins just looking at a colourful electrolytic) ,sleep deprived 30 yo. with a new baby & a 2nd job to pay the bills, & 50 yo. with shot closeup vision. Yes- all in the same ("do my bit for the faculty" ) hobby class once, & the very evening that the photocopier broke down + the building security misbehaved! Well- OK- it was 30 years back, but I recall the hassles VERY clearly... ( Yes- the coffee was cold too)
Lucid versatile aids that clarify things, ease the instructors work load , boost the PR of the institution (as a take home freebie maybe?) AND encourage/stimulate the learner are a winner in my books. Stan.
Mycroft2152
Senior Member
There is no argument that there is a limited user base for this program - as a teacher's tool.
My daughter just graduated with a science teaching degree and was telling me about this packet of programs she was given -- cross word puzzle p=maker for spelling words, a test maker and a few others. These have been public domain for years.. She was thrilled.
But, it is just not for everyone -- definitely not the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Let's keep it in perspective about the overall usefulness of the program.
SilentScreamer
Senior Member
Personally I think I would use this despite packages offering simulation and other better features. I remember what I did wrong when I cause components to blow, a virtual component blowing on screen doesn't have the same effect.
It would have been great to go with a photo and description in my GCSE coursework however its too late for that but I still think I will use it for designing anything that is even moderately complex. It will also help if the circuit doesn't work, I can post the image on here and it will probably be easier to check that a photo would be. How many blurred photos have you seen on here? Sending a link asking them to draw it up could save countless posts asking for clarification of the image. I accept that it probably has little use for the "older" members but while learning it seems ideal for me.
It would have been great to go with a photo and description in my GCSE coursework however its too late for that but I still think I will use it for designing anything that is even moderately complex. It will also help if the circuit doesn't work, I can post the image on here and it will probably be easier to check that a photo would be. How many blurred photos have you seen on here? Sending a link asking them to draw it up could save countless posts asking for clarification of the image. I accept that it probably has little use for the "older" members but while learning it seems ideal for me.
BeanieBots
Moderator
The only problem with doing that, is that quite often the problem is an error with the ACTUAL circuit which is often spotted with a photo. Certainly better than nothing though and ideal for coursework write-ups.
westaust55
Moderator
Picaxe Electronic Breadboard
Although quiet from my side for the past day or so while out and about with family over longweekend herre,, have still been pottering along with the PICAXE Electronic Breadboard (EBB) - since VBB is already a commercial product name.
Now have a whole collection more component images so that resistor, capacitors (4 types) diodes (two formats - glass and black plastic), are all available in three sizes. Two formats (TO92 and TO220 for transistors).
Been a whole lot of component image renaming for easing of working on the scripts.
General DIP and PICAXE chips from 8 pin to 28 pin plus some PICAXE support chips such as EEPROM, RTC, ULN2803, L293D, 74HC595 and MCP23017.
While some images still to do, did some work this evening on the Java scripts and found the updates to be quick to achieve to select the correct gif image files for components.
Once I have more sorted out will get a first edition up on Manuka's website.
Then will worry about adding switches, terminal blocks, batteries, alternative breadboards, SIL modules as a second pass.
Although quiet from my side for the past day or so while out and about with family over longweekend herre,, have still been pottering along with the PICAXE Electronic Breadboard (EBB) - since VBB is already a commercial product name.
Now have a whole collection more component images so that resistor, capacitors (4 types) diodes (two formats - glass and black plastic), are all available in three sizes. Two formats (TO92 and TO220 for transistors).
Been a whole lot of component image renaming for easing of working on the scripts.
General DIP and PICAXE chips from 8 pin to 28 pin plus some PICAXE support chips such as EEPROM, RTC, ULN2803, L293D, 74HC595 and MCP23017.
While some images still to do, did some work this evening on the Java scripts and found the updates to be quick to achieve to select the correct gif image files for components.
Once I have more sorted out will get a first edition up on Manuka's website.
Then will worry about adding switches, terminal blocks, batteries, alternative breadboards, SIL modules as a second pass.
westaust55
Moderator
virtual breadboard expanded
Just to keep you drooling for a while longer as you wait . . .
Still have a few bits to sort out (more maths) to get all components lining up with the holes and add some single sided electros as top view (basically circles)
Just to keep you drooling for a while longer as you wait . . .
Still have a few bits to sort out (more maths) to get all components lining up with the holes and add some single sided electros as top view (basically circles)
Attachments
Labelled chips? That makes so much sense. When building a real circuit on a breadboard, I find I have to have the datasheet in front of me as I wire it up. But with this system, you could use a pre-labelled chip, wire it up on the virtual breadboard, then copy that across to a real one. Then you don't need to look up the data sheet.
This almost makes it too easy! BTW, that is one nice looking breadboard.
This almost makes it too easy! BTW, that is one nice looking breadboard.
westaust55
Moderator
View attachment 3367Hi manuka,
I had already increased the 'thickness" by a couple of pixels.
Attached is cut with Ray's original, my slightly thicker version and a new even thicker version.
Looking at a real TO92 package on a breadboard the middle version is about spot on for closeness to the next row of holes
I had already increased the 'thickness" by a couple of pixels.
Attached is cut with Ray's original, my slightly thicker version and a new even thicker version.
Looking at a real TO92 package on a breadboard the middle version is about spot on for closeness to the next row of holes
Attachments
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westaust55
Moderator
Folks can vote on transistors based on the post above . . .
Breadboard colours and other bits like the stereo/programming socket will be in release 2 when I get a first version out in the big wide world (refer post 104).
I don't think the transistors matter either way. Go the middle one if that is closest to real life. I do like the idea of adding the stereo socket though. I'm thinking of what you need to build the absolute minimum real-life flashing led circuit. A board. Battery pack or supply of some sort. Stereo download socket (? with coloured wires soldered on it - that is how I would build one), picaxe 08 (with labels!!) , led, resistor, decoupling cap, some wires, the 10k/22k download resistors. Looking at what is on that teaser board, I reckon we are almost good to go.
I'd like to test this out on my kids. I know that if I showed them a schematic out of the manual, they would look at me with a blank stare. But I reckon if I showed them one of Westy's boards wired up with an 08M, and gave them a real breadboard with some components, I think I could get them hooked.
I'd like to test this out on my kids. I know that if I showed them a schematic out of the manual, they would look at me with a blank stare. But I reckon if I showed them one of Westy's boards wired up with an 08M, and gave them a real breadboard with some components, I think I could get them hooked.
OK-time to bolt down a package name. Although I'm happy to trial host,naturally an easily downloadable bundle will be needed if it's to be used off line. I suggest V.1 be tested for a few weeks then Rev.Ed's hosting offer be taken up. In that case of course the PICAXE name could feature, meaning a PBB - it could also cover "Pictorial". I still like the original VBB virtual tag, however perhaps VP or even ViP (Virtual Picaxe or Virtual Prototyping) may do.
Whatever XXX becomes, it needs to be something that flows off the tongue so students/teachers can readily quote it "OK guys - here's the XXX layout for you to follow" sort of thing. Mmm -"Bird's Eye View" (BEV)- a classical phrase that's now rather ignored in favour of a "Google Earth" view. B.E.V. also neatly could mean "Breadboard Electronic Virtual". Students (especially younger ones) would relate to such a natural name, & the class wit could have a field day with bird dropping jokes & "laying" connections out "eggactly". Anything appealing that'll get hesitant hormonal students interested, engaged & undaunted is worthwhile in my opinion!
Perhaps even 4 letters? "ViBB"? If "BB" remains how about WeBB or WEBB (Westy's Electronic BB)? That of course neatly (but perhaps confusingly) ties in with it being accessed from the "web" itself. May as well have a plug for the West Australian state WABB? Maybe even pun names - "Holy" tempts of course!?
Any number of acronym generator web sites abound = hours of fun! However IMHO a key aspect should relate to the package NOT being seen or promoted as a simulator. It's after all intended as just a colourful confidence boosting layout tool. Stan.
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EXTRA: The Black Swan - native to Western Australia -is the WA state bird by the way, which (given my surname) predictably takes my fancy! The swan emblem is found all over Perth & Fremantle, festooned on early buildings,flags & beverages. Although a strong flying bird, black swans spend a lot of their day just idly sitting on the water -sample pix below.
Up until their 18th century discovery, swans were always considered white, a fact that Europeans regarded as near sacred. The term "Black Swan" (much used with recent ecomonic gloom) means "An occurrence that deviates beyond what is normally expected of a situation, & although difficult to predict in hindsight was to be expected." In other words-"Something unexpected that changes everything".
In spite of Westy's Javascript magic,we shouldn't worship this VBB/EBB/PBB/ViP/WEBB/BEV/"whatever" creation, but (as I'm sure you'll agree) it looks to be unexpectedly fulfilling a previously neglected circuit layout need.
Whatever XXX becomes, it needs to be something that flows off the tongue so students/teachers can readily quote it "OK guys - here's the XXX layout for you to follow" sort of thing. Mmm -"Bird's Eye View" (BEV)- a classical phrase that's now rather ignored in favour of a "Google Earth" view. B.E.V. also neatly could mean "Breadboard Electronic Virtual". Students (especially younger ones) would relate to such a natural name, & the class wit could have a field day with bird dropping jokes & "laying" connections out "eggactly". Anything appealing that'll get hesitant hormonal students interested, engaged & undaunted is worthwhile in my opinion!
Perhaps even 4 letters? "ViBB"? If "BB" remains how about WeBB or WEBB (Westy's Electronic BB)? That of course neatly (but perhaps confusingly) ties in with it being accessed from the "web" itself. May as well have a plug for the West Australian state WABB? Maybe even pun names - "Holy" tempts of course!?
Any number of acronym generator web sites abound = hours of fun! However IMHO a key aspect should relate to the package NOT being seen or promoted as a simulator. It's after all intended as just a colourful confidence boosting layout tool. Stan.
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EXTRA: The Black Swan - native to Western Australia -is the WA state bird by the way, which (given my surname) predictably takes my fancy! The swan emblem is found all over Perth & Fremantle, festooned on early buildings,flags & beverages. Although a strong flying bird, black swans spend a lot of their day just idly sitting on the water -sample pix below.
Up until their 18th century discovery, swans were always considered white, a fact that Europeans regarded as near sacred. The term "Black Swan" (much used with recent ecomonic gloom) means "An occurrence that deviates beyond what is normally expected of a situation, & although difficult to predict in hindsight was to be expected." In other words-"Something unexpected that changes everything".
In spite of Westy's Javascript magic,we shouldn't worship this VBB/EBB/PBB/ViP/WEBB/BEV/"whatever" creation, but (as I'm sure you'll agree) it looks to be unexpectedly fulfilling a previously neglected circuit layout need.
Attachments
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westaust55
Moderator
Picaxe Electronic Bread Board Layout Emulator
Not a lot achieve last night but did set up the correct maths to better/correctly locate the component images relative to the breadboard holes.
Manuka had mentioned that the acronym VBB is already in commercial and come up with some alternative.
Here is my suggestion:
PEBBLE
aka Picaxe Electronic Bread Board Layout Emulator
from little things come bigger things . . . .
Not a lot achieve last night but did set up the correct maths to better/correctly locate the component images relative to the breadboard holes.
Manuka had mentioned that the acronym VBB is already in commercial and come up with some alternative.
Here is my suggestion:
PEBBLE
aka Picaxe Electronic Bread Board Layout Emulator
from little things come bigger things . . . .
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For what it is worth, I like both BEV and PEBBLE. I have no better alternative to add, but it one slaps me up the side of my head, I will mention it.
Interesting about the Black Swans, Stan. I had one try to peck at my boots at Kew Gardens, just outside London, once (1989?). Cool birds, very impressive.
Cheers,
Wreno
Interesting about the Black Swans, Stan. I had one try to peck at my boots at Kew Gardens, just outside London, once (1989?). Cool birds, very impressive.
Cheers,
Wreno
Andrew Cowan
Senior Member
I'd go with PEBBLE.
A
A