A poster asked a question based on a comment made in a post on All About Circuits which stated that Picaxes are not industrial temperature rated. I looked in the datasheet for the 08M's base chip, the PIC12F683. In section 15 it shows a temp range of -40 to +125C and storage at -65 to +150C. This sure looks industrial to me.
Temperature spec
- Thread starter Jaguarjoe
- Start date
westaust55
Moderator
From the datasheets for the PIC chips used as the PICAXE 28X2 and 40X2 5V parts (same applies to other PICAXE chips I have datasheets at hand for) states:
PIC18LF2420/2520/4420/4520 (Industrial)
Standard Operating Conditions (unless otherwise stated)
Operating temperature -40°C <= TA <=+85°C for industrial
PIC18F2420/2520/4420/4520 (Industrial, Extended)
Standard Operating Conditions (unless otherwise stated)
Operating temperature -40°C <= TA <= +85°C for industrial
-40°C <= TA <= +125°C for extended
The military standard MIL-STD-810 (currently Revision G as at October 31, 2008 seemingly “only” requires -55°C to 125°C.
Some websites also suggest that the Military Spec temp range is -55°C to 125°C
PIC18LF2420/2520/4420/4520 (Industrial)
Standard Operating Conditions (unless otherwise stated)
Operating temperature -40°C <= TA <=+85°C for industrial
PIC18F2420/2520/4420/4520 (Industrial, Extended)
Standard Operating Conditions (unless otherwise stated)
Operating temperature -40°C <= TA <= +85°C for industrial
-40°C <= TA <= +125°C for extended
The military standard MIL-STD-810 (currently Revision G as at October 31, 2008 seemingly “only” requires -55°C to 125°C.
Some websites also suggest that the Military Spec temp range is -55°C to 125°C
westaust55
Moderator
I had a look on the ATMEL website (first time for many things 
) and lo and behold
for AVR32 (32-bit) chips from typical datasheets:
Absolute Maximum Ratings:
Operating Temperature......................................-40⋅C to +85⋅C
Storage Temperature ..................................... -60°C to +150°C
For automotive ATtiny AVR from typical datasheets:
Automotive Operating Temperature ..............– 40°C to +125°C
Storage Temperature ....................................– 65°C to +150°C
from the All about Circuits website, the mentioned thread:
http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?p=282206
is folks making generalised statements without adequate knowledge or "pushing their own barrow".
) and lo and behold for AVR32 (32-bit) chips from typical datasheets:
Absolute Maximum Ratings:
Operating Temperature......................................-40⋅C to +85⋅C
Storage Temperature ..................................... -60°C to +150°C
For automotive ATtiny AVR from typical datasheets:
Automotive Operating Temperature ..............– 40°C to +125°C
Storage Temperature ....................................– 65°C to +150°C
from the All about Circuits website, the mentioned thread:
http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?p=282206
is folks making generalised statements without adequate knowledge or "pushing their own barrow".
Why not just look at the writing on the PIC .
For DIP stuff the suffix is usually I/P or E/P.
And then study the data sheet, JJ.
An example is shown below.
Summary. Where possible ALWAYS get the info from the source. 12 year old spotty Johnny on the Forum is not always correct. Data Sheets, not tittle-tattle.
Aside: As we don't have a full Data Sheet for the 18M2 I wonder what that is?
Remember, that at very high temperatures you will get problems associated with charge migration and leakage currents in the silicon - these rise dramatically with temperature, this affects device lifespan (it rapidly reduces with each degree) and may affect proper device operation.
I saw an amusing question & answer on the Microchip website.
The question was slightly poo-pooing PICs for only going up to 125oC.
"One company (Texas Components) is using some of TI’s DSP chips in a custom hybrid at 200 degrees C for down hole oil well measurements."
The Microchip replies included:-
" If you try it, lets us know-we want to spend that week in Payson"
Good lads!
For DIP stuff the suffix is usually I/P or E/P.
And then study the data sheet, JJ.
An example is shown below.
Summary. Where possible ALWAYS get the info from the source. 12 year old spotty Johnny on the Forum is not always correct. Data Sheets, not tittle-tattle.
Aside: As we don't have a full Data Sheet for the 18M2 I wonder what that is?
Remember, that at very high temperatures you will get problems associated with charge migration and leakage currents in the silicon - these rise dramatically with temperature, this affects device lifespan (it rapidly reduces with each degree) and may affect proper device operation.
I saw an amusing question & answer on the Microchip website.
The question was slightly poo-pooing PICs for only going up to 125oC.
"One company (Texas Components) is using some of TI’s DSP chips in a custom hybrid at 200 degrees C for down hole oil well measurements."
The Microchip replies included:-
" If you try it, lets us know-we want to spend that week in Payson"
Good lads!
Attachments
hippy
Ex-Staff (retired)
The answer to any, "Can the PICAXE be used in this industry?", question is, "Yes; so long as the PICAXE specification meets the demands of the industry, meets the requirement of the role it's used in and has the capability and performance to achieve the task required".
You can replace PICAXE with any other name and that also applies to other products as well as microcontrollers; in fact it's the general rule for choosing any product to do any job.
Some replies to that thread appear to suggest that (1) the Power Industry has particular operational temperature requirements which the PICAXE cannot meet and (2) the PICAXE will not be up to the task, and therefore is unsuitable.
I would be surprised if any industry has any absolute electrical operational requirements laid down across the board, but they certainly will have for particular, or classes of, product. The PICAXE, like every other product, has its limitations which may exclude it from a particular use or task, but the important thing is what that particular task is. An "in this industry" categorisation is far too wide to make a fair judgement. In this particular case "Power Industry" could encompass everything from nuclear power plant to household energy consumption displays.
On the suggestion that a PICAXE is not up to a task, is a poor performer, or is inferior to other products; that's usually putting the cart before the horse or agenda pushing. The question is, can the PICAXE do the job in a timely manner ? If so what more is required of it ?
On the question of temperature; most PICAXE use standard Industrial temperature rated parts ( as Microchip term them ), -40C to +85C. This is suitable for most uses a PICAXE will be put to, and keeps parts cost low. If someone had a need for Extended Temperature PICAXE parts I am sure Rev-Ed would be pleased to discuss that requirement but it may require minimum order quantities - contact the Rev-Ed office.
You can replace PICAXE with any other name and that also applies to other products as well as microcontrollers; in fact it's the general rule for choosing any product to do any job.
Some replies to that thread appear to suggest that (1) the Power Industry has particular operational temperature requirements which the PICAXE cannot meet and (2) the PICAXE will not be up to the task, and therefore is unsuitable.
I would be surprised if any industry has any absolute electrical operational requirements laid down across the board, but they certainly will have for particular, or classes of, product. The PICAXE, like every other product, has its limitations which may exclude it from a particular use or task, but the important thing is what that particular task is. An "in this industry" categorisation is far too wide to make a fair judgement. In this particular case "Power Industry" could encompass everything from nuclear power plant to household energy consumption displays.
On the suggestion that a PICAXE is not up to a task, is a poor performer, or is inferior to other products; that's usually putting the cart before the horse or agenda pushing. The question is, can the PICAXE do the job in a timely manner ? If so what more is required of it ?
On the question of temperature; most PICAXE use standard Industrial temperature rated parts ( as Microchip term them ), -40C to +85C. This is suitable for most uses a PICAXE will be put to, and keeps parts cost low. If someone had a need for Extended Temperature PICAXE parts I am sure Rev-Ed would be pleased to discuss that requirement but it may require minimum order quantities - contact the Rev-Ed office.
hippy
Ex-Staff (retired)
That has been explained in the past. Forum search ( top right of the page ) should reveal previous discussion.
Thanks hippy.
I had a look at the 18M2 pdf - no mention.
I've just just been searching and have trawled through more than 250 posts. I'm knackered. I give in.
Yes, many, many mentions of 16F1827 - but I/P or E/P? I cannot find that information.
I'm still in the dark.
Where is this information that "has been explained in the past". Sorry, I just cannot find it.
Reminds me of the Planning Application in Hitch Hiker's Guide...
This thread amused me http://www.picaxeforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11715&highlight=16f1827
Can you tell me the suitable Search phrase please? (top right of page).
I had a look at the 18M2 pdf - no mention.
I've just just been searching and have trawled through more than 250 posts. I'm knackered. I give in.
Yes, many, many mentions of 16F1827 - but I/P or E/P? I cannot find that information.
I'm still in the dark.
Where is this information that "has been explained in the past". Sorry, I just cannot find it.
Reminds me of the Planning Application in Hitch Hiker's Guide...
This thread amused me http://www.picaxeforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11715&highlight=16f1827
Can you tell me the suitable Search phrase please? (top right of page).
Thanks for the answers Hippy/Dippy. That was the same thread I alluded to in the accidental thread jack on the 08 chip. Seemed to me they were axe grinding, but without attempting to embarass the parties involved I was seeking an answer for a project I am working on too. Looks to me like the chip will work just fine for my app. I just need o plan for some forced ventilation/heat sinking to cool and keep it clean. Thanks again
Bob
Bob
I did, please reread the first post.
Hi JJ, actually I did read the first post when I initially looked at this thread.
You said: (Quote)
"I looked in the datasheet for the 08M's base chip, the PIC12F683. In section 15 it shows a temp range of -40 to +125C and storage at -65 to +150C. This sure looks industrial to me."
Crucial parts of the quote:-
"it shows.. -40 to +125C.."
"This sure looks industrial to me."
According to my copy of the Data Sheet:-
Temperature Range
I = -40°C to +85°C
E = -40°C to +125°C
E = "Extended" range and not the "Industrial".
You only seem to have looked at Abs Max rating, now look at most of the tables in section 15.....
and the "Product Identification System" nearly at the end of the document.
That's why I assumed you hadn't read the Data Sheet properly. Does that make sense?
Anyway, now we all know so we can get on huh?
You said: (Quote)
"I looked in the datasheet for the 08M's base chip, the PIC12F683. In section 15 it shows a temp range of -40 to +125C and storage at -65 to +150C. This sure looks industrial to me."
Crucial parts of the quote:-
"it shows.. -40 to +125C.."
"This sure looks industrial to me."
According to my copy of the Data Sheet:-
Temperature Range
I = -40°C to +85°C
E = -40°C to +125°C
E = "Extended" range and not the "Industrial".
You only seem to have looked at Abs Max rating, now look at most of the tables in section 15.....
and the "Product Identification System" nearly at the end of the document.
That's why I assumed you hadn't read the Data Sheet properly. Does that make sense?
Anyway, now we all know so we can get on huh?
fernando_g
Senior Member
Those devices ARE NOT cheap.I saw an amusing question & answer on the Microchip website.
The question was slightly poo-pooing PICs for only going up to 125oC.
"One company (Texas Components) is using some of TI’s DSP chips in a custom hybrid at 200 degrees C for down hole oil well measurements."
The Microchip replies included:-
" If you try it, lets us know-we want to spend that week in Payson"
Good lads!
In Electronics, you can get highly rated, highly selected devices, as long as one is willing to pay top Dollar, Top Euro or Top Sterling.