Suggestion : Diagnostic hardware to be supplied with every AXE027

Buzby

Buzby

Senior Member
Hi All,

Seeing the number of forum inches devoted over the years to 'Hardware not found on COM x' set me thinking.
How many people buy some PICAXE kit, get 'hardware not found', but don't come to the forum ?.
Do they just stick it in a drawer, then buy a different product altogether ? .

To ease the pain, Rev-Ed could supply every programming cable with an additional tiny PCB fitted with a 3.5mm surface mount socket.
This would be wired as per Goeytex's excellent paper-clip test.

Armed with this mighty tool, and a specific 'Cable Test' button in PE, diagnosing 'hardware not found' would be so much easier, both for the forum and for those we never see. ( A slight enhancement could be the inclusion of a diode and LED, to detect crossed Tx/Rx lines. )

What does the panel think ?

Cheers,

Buzby
 
B

BeanieBots

Moderator
I won't dispute that there are many posts regarding download problems so it certainly warrants some thought. However, your proposed solution would impact profits so it would need careful consideration. You also need to consider that if somebody struggles to get the PICAXE download method working, what are their chances of getting one of the other 'products' working?
Also, do not dismiss this forum which nearly always resolves such problems. The same cannot be said for other products.

All in all, a simple equation. Would the cost of the additional hardware be offset by additional custom?
Personally, I very much doubt it.

I think it would be fair to say that most of the "hardware not found" problems result from users trying to save a few pence by either not buying a ready made project board or not buying the 'approved' download cable. So what would be the chances of those users PAYING for some EXTRA hardware to help diagnose an issue?

Just my tuppence worth.
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
http://www.picaxeforum.co.uk/showthread.php?16306-AXE027-Download-Cable-Test-Circuit

Now whether or not it's worth providing as a PCB, or if people would buy it ... ?

I don't think there are that many people who hit problems, instantly give up, dump it in a drawer, because it's usually been an investment in PICAXE plus download cable as a minimum.

Though we see a fair few download issues on the forum, in terms of product shipped, it's actually quite a minority and only a few who have "bought a starter kit plus AXE027" and have hardware not found. Agreed, it's still a useful diagnostic, but LED+R and paperclip are usually good ( and cheap ) enough tools.
 
Technical

Technical

Technical Support
Staff member
We don't think a hardware solution is required, but we are actually already working on an on-screen step-by-step troubleshooting wizard which will help.

But as Hippy says, the actual number of support requests in relation to total number of AXE027 sold is very low.
 
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nick12ab

Senior Member
Maybe you could just supply two jumpers with the AXE029, and the second jumper is used on the pins that connect to the breadboard to short Serial In and Serial Out together.
 
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manuka

Senior Member
More like 20 quid unfortunately.
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I (again) have to agree. Although long an AXE027 user (or -earlier- direct serial from old laptops etc), the official cable is indeed NOT cheap. It's especially annoying to see classes waiting around for their turn to use the few costly AXE027 that a cash strapped school has available...

In contrast the popular blue/green USB-D9 offerings go here in NZ for only a few US$ & have shown themselves totally reliable, easily located in a cable snake nest, ruggedly constructed & faster with program transfer than the AXE027.

I must have put half the Aust/NZ PICAXErs on to these alternatives, & really don't know why Rev. Ed doesn't use them instead! Stan.
 
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Jakob2803

Senior Member
manuka said:
I (again) have to agree. Although long an AXE027 user (or -earlier- direct serial from old laptops etc), the official cable is indeed NOT cheap. It's especially annoying to see classes waiting around for their turn to use the few costly AXE027 that a cash strapped school has available...

In contrast the popular blue/green USB-D9 offerings go here in NZ for only a few US$ & have shown themselves totally reliable, easily located in a cable snake nest, ruggedly constructed & faster with program transfer than the AXE027.

I must have put half of Aust/NZ on to these alternatives, & really don't know why Rev. Ed doesn't use them instead! Stan.
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Also the projects boards are so expensive. :( I guess it is because they have their PCBs industrially produced.
 
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mkstevo

Guest
Jakob2803 said:
More like 20 quid unfortunately. :(
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The current price of the PicAxe 08M2 starter kit, complete with 08M2, project PCB, battery holder, full software and USB download cable is £15.51 + £3.50P&P + VAT = £22.81 all in.

The closest equivalent a (very) quick search on Google for 'Pic Starter Kit' turned up was a PicKit1 from JPRElec (UK based). This is selling for 26.50 including software, PCB (which has more components than the PicAxe version, granted) and USB cable. I don't know if the software is a 'full' version or not, it doesn't say.

This makes the PicAxe look good value I'd say?

The stand alone cable for PicAxe is selling (inc P&P) for £14.99. I suppose you could get 'any old' USB cable to program a Pic if you didn't want to purchase a starter kit, but you'd need to get a hold of a suitable socket to plug the USB cable into and connect it to the target Pic PCB.

Perhaps the exchange rate isn't favouring purchasers from Denmark, but £14.99 doesn't seem too expensive, given how much that cable simplifies the end product.
 
J

Jakob2803

Senior Member
mkstevo said:
The current price of the PicAxe 08M2 starter kit, complete with 08M2, project PCB, battery holder, full software and USB download cable is £15.51 + £3.50P&P + VAT = £22.81 all in.

The closest equivalent a (very) quick search on Google for 'Pic Starter Kit' turned up was a PicKit1 from JPRElec (UK based). This is selling for 26.50 including software, PCB (which has more components than the PicAxe version, granted) and USB cable. I don't know if the software is a 'full' version or not, it doesn't say.

This makes the PicAxe look good value I'd say?

The stand alone cable for PicAxe is selling (inc P&P) for £14.99. I suppose you could get 'any old' USB cable to program a Pic if you didn't want to purchase a starter kit, but you'd need to get a hold of a suitable socket to plug the USB cable into and connect it to the target Pic PCB.

Perhaps the exchange rate isn't favouring purchasers from Denmark, but £14.99 doesn't seem too expensive, given how much that cable simplifies the end product.
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I just looked at their site. The project boards are reasonably priced, but those starter packs.. :(
Well the cable is a bit pricy but that is okay because it is a one-time fee. Individual chips are very cheap too.
 
H

hamtech

Member
Technical said:
We don't think a hardware solution is required, but we are actually already working on an on-screen step-by-step troubleshooting wizard which will help.

But as Hippy says, the actual number of support requests in relation to total number of AXE027 sold is very low.
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I have an AXE 027 the performance of which as been extremely hit and miss. Most of the time it will not function, even though it passes the paper clip test. Because of it I made up a serial lead which has a prolific usb serial to usb convertor . This works when the axe 027 will not. When I first got my AXE027 it worked fine for a month or so. But after that it will hardly work unless it it is disconnected for some time. My serial lead works every time. I am running windows 7 on my PC . I have tried the drivers many times, but eventually gave up on it. The point is the same USB port on the PC works with the serial USB lead but not with AXE 027 with the same PICAXE chip in situ on the board.
 
Technical

Technical

Technical Support
Staff member
hamtech said:
I have an AXE 027 the performance of which as been extremely hit and miss. Most of the time it will not function, even though it passes the paper clip test.
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The AXE027 is probably damaged then, it should work 100% reliably, in fact more reliably than a universal USB<>serial adapter. The 'paperclip' test is only one test, it does not prove the cable is working correctly. A voltage test is also required.

manuka said:
I (again) have to agree. Although long an AXE027 user (or -earlier- direct serial from old laptops etc), the official cable is indeed NOT cheap. It's especially annoying to see classes waiting around for their turn to use the few costly AXE027 that a cash strapped school has available...

In contrast the popular blue/green USB-D9 offerings go here in NZ for only a few US$ & have shown themselves totally reliable, easily located in a cable snake nest, ruggedly constructed & faster with program transfer than the AXE027.

I must have put half the Aust/NZ PICAXErs on to these alternatives, & really don't know why Rev. Ed doesn't use them instead! Stan.
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[Tongue in cheek] We all know that Manuka would rather the whole world made their own cable out of an old serial mouse and use it via headers onto a breadboard [/Tongue]
Unfortunately this is not actually how the vast majority of our customers, educational or not, actually want to work - neither making their own cable or exclusively using breadboards.

We do already sell a good quality universal USB adapter (part USB010) http://www.picaxe.com/Software/Drivers/USB010-USB-Adapter-Driver/
However remember you still have to actually make the download cable itself - and when you combine the two costs/time taken it is not much different to the AXE027
We can never compete with a cheap ebay chinese adapter, but a large percentage of these do not work reliably, particularly those with a 'fake' prolific chip in.

An AXE027 is also far better 'technology' than an universal adapter as it is a true 5V logic level device. This is an important factor often overlooked.
And as to download speeds, choose your own if you want - search the forum for 'AXE027 + latency'
http://www.picaxeforum.co.uk/showthread.php?18867
 
Buzby

Buzby

Senior Member
Hi All,

It was not my intention for this thread to turn into a criticism of Rev-Ed's pricing, I just wanted to suggest a way of quickly checking that the USB driver was properly installed, and the cable not broken.

However I can see the point of view of an educational establishment who can provide every student with a PICAXE board and chip for 99p each, but then needs to spend an order of magnitude more to program them.

USB drivers are just a pain in the a***.

I will not buy an AXE027, or any other USB-to-PICAXE solution, until I have to use a PC that has no serial, or a laptop that won't accept my 'real serial' card.
( However, my PE options screen does show COM4 as an unavailable Prolific USB-to-Serial. I have no idea where that came from !. Could this be the reason why my PE splash screen stays on for 55 seconds ? )

But when that time comes I will buy the latest Rev-Ed product, because then if it doesn't work I know who to blame.

It was good to read that Rev-Ed are looking into a software diagnostic, it's a step in the right direction.

Cheers,

Buzby
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
Buzby said:
However I can see the point of view of an educational establishment who can provide every student with a PICAXE board and chip for 99p each, but then needs to spend an order of magnitude more to program them.
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I felt much the same way when a friend offered a free car but it would cost me £500+ a year for tax, insurance and recovery !

At least with our school deals it's the other way round; the boards as 'consumables' are low cost and within school's and students means and the download cables are of quality construction, reliable and should last a long time. As 'capital expenditure' the price for what you get isn't bad and schools don't necessarily have to buy a cable per board nor even per student.
 
S

srnet

Senior Member
Buzby said:
However I can see the point of view of an educational establishment who can provide every student with a PICAXE board and chip for 99p each, but then needs to spend an order of magnitude more to program them.
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And indeed, then has to spend many times more than that again to provide the PC to program them on.
 
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nick12ab

Senior Member
srnet said:
And indeed, then has to spend many times more than that again to provide the PC to program them on.
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BUT the IT department handles that! It probably also comes out of a hefty IT budget rather than the DT budget. Or they could use manuka's method - using cheap late nineties laptops.
 
Buzby

Buzby

Senior Member
srnet said:
And indeed, then has to spend many times more than that again to provide the PC to program them on.
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Our local high school does have a laptop per student, but they are not dedicated to programming micros. They are used in many different subjects, and are funded by the IT budget. ( The school has more IT equipment than you can shake a stick at*, but the 'experts' in the IT department can't get half of it working !. )

the boards as 'consumables' are low cost and within school's and students means and the download cables are of quality construction, reliable and should last a long time.
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I fully agree with hippy's statement, I just think £15 is quite a lot if you need a few of them. As a hobbyist I don't mind paying for one, although as I do like having two COM ports for PICAXE, when the time comes I'll have to buy two. Then my USB woes will really begin !.

Cheers,

Buzby

( *Where does this one originate ? )
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
Buzby said:
I just think £15 is quite a lot if you need a few of them.
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£11.99 inc VAT, £9.99 exc VAT and that's the price schools will be paying ( or after VAT has been reclaimed ). There's postage and import duties for some to add but that can be spread across everything ordered and it would likely be rare for a school to be ordering single cables as a regular occurrence. Yes, it adds up if you buy a lot, but what doesn't :)

"Too many to shake a stick at"; from the similar "too many to shake a pointed stick at" my guess is it's a generalised version of that and pointed stick as in weapon, eg spear, and too many enemies to credibly threaten with it. Just a guess though.
 
Buzby

Buzby

Senior Member
Hi hippy,

This thread has gone way OT, so here is a couple of OT observations.

In the educational price list, my favourite cable, the AXE026, is £1 dearer than in the usual price list.

Also, there is a description of an AXE028, 'A driverless instant plug’n’play USB cable primarily designed for school Windows networks where USB drivers are not easily installed.' The write up also says 'PICAXE specific - works with PICAXE software but not any other type of application.'

It seems to me that whatever technology is in the AXE028 would have been ideally suited to the AXE027 as well.

Cheers,

Buzby
 
Buzby

Buzby

Senior Member
D

Dippy

Moderator
That looks a fantastic deal.
I've used proper ones (and EC format) made by Brainboxes and they were flawless with PIC and serial data comms.
They were really helpful, quick and speak English.

I hope they work well for you.
One question; if they play up will you be posting here for the free , and possibly prolonged, technical help?
Remember the request "Please do not leave negative feedback to me..." :(
 
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manuka

Senior Member
I really wish you guys would just buy some of these HL-340 USB-D9 blue adapters & confirm their performance yourselves! Check the likes of this UK E-Bay seller who's offering them for under 2 quid. At such coin shop prices it's hardly worth mucking around... Stan.
 
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srnet

Senior Member
To which you have to add the standard serial programming lead @ £2.50, so its £4.30 versus £10 for the AXE027.

I have two of the 'blue' USB to serial leads, and they do work, but I am sure you can work out which one I use all the time........

Oh, and how do you know that adapter on eBay is a "HL-340 USB-D9" ?
 
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manuka

Senior Member
Thanks to a helpful local supplier on Trade Me (NZ's popular EBay),I've just received yet another crate of "blue" USB-D9 adapters for student's personal use. These cash strapped Polytech students are quite up to wiring their own D9(F) & 3 wire programming lead from parts at hand, BUT a NZ$100 (~£50) project BOM (Bill of Materials) means a genuine AXE027 (locally costing ~NZ$40 = ~£20) would have seriously slashed into their budget...

All these delivered cables have tested out -phew- as PICAXE friendly, & their NZ$4 (~UK£2) price is locally near an order of magnitude cheaper than an AXE027. They transfer programs faster than an AXE027 as well- a handy bonus when using such recent offerings as the 08M2 (which require 2 transfer passes). Being a colourful blue makes them easier to find in a cabling snakes pit of course too.

FWIW I've been passed a non behaving "fake" adapter of similar colour & sturdy build quality,but in spite of checking all manner of drivers (both new & old) have found it non behaving for PICAXE programming. This is not to say it won't be handy in other applications of course - the issue may relate to Serial/TTL levels. Yeah- I'm lazy & have not measured. Visible differences (with testing under Win XP SP3 & PICAXE Editor Ver 5.5.1) are -

Fake: Only a "340" on D9, thumb screws same colour as housing, no crystal visible, black blob COB (chip on board), no USB rib grips, white cover over USB connections, editor sees as "Prolific USB-to-Serial Comm Port"

Genuine: Full "HL-340" on D9, clear thumb screws, slightly darker blue, canned crystal visible, shrunk small-outline package (SSOP) IC just visible, 3 grip ribs on USB, editor sees as "USB-SERIAL CH340" (CH = "ChipHead&#8221; ex Nanjing Qinheng Electronics. Details => http://wch-ic.com/product/usb/ch340.asp).

Hope this eases "blue" cable ID frustration, & of course helps someones piggy bank. It's easy to throw money around WHEN you have it, but -here in NZ anyway- many schools & students have blown budgets on such character forming pursuits as field trips, swish "impress the prospects" IT suites & sports facilities.

"Electronics" as a subject is often considered a small change concern for many administrators... Stan.
 

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AllyCat

Senior Member
Hi,

Thanks for that useful information - if only it were that simple! I believe the issue (or one of them) with the "fakes" is that they don't support "break signalling". BTW was it possible to "non-destructively" open the casing to take those excellent photos?

Personally, I have had one of those "blue" serial cables for many years (can't remember where I bought it) marked HL-340, however it has blue thumbscrews and I think a COB chip on the opposite side to the crystal (the plastic is quite dark). It works fine with Win.XP / PICaxe and rather surprisingly also with Win.7 when I downloaded the latest drivers.

To add to the complication there are a number of sellers on ebay here in the UK, all selling "similar" items at just under £2, some showing a picture with blue thumbscrews, some clear and some specifically stating as not being suitable for Win.7 (which might actually be incorrect). But often ebay pictures aren't accurate anyway; of course you could return an "incorrect" one as "mis-described" but few people will bother, especially with the risk of return postage not being refunded.

However, a few weeks ago I decided to purchase one of the adapters from exactly the seller quoted in #25 above. It was delivered within a few days, looks like its ebay photo (i.e. clear thumbcrews), came with a mini-CD (which I didn't bother to use), installed itself automatically as a "340" and seems to work fine (with PICaxe). However, it is marked only as "340" and uses a COB chip on the same side as the crystal.

Therefore, the only "discriminating factor" might be the presence of a crystal (or does the "fake" have one on the other side of the PCB?). So yes, I tentatively support manuka's recommendation (at least for the seller/link posted above), but would only recommend buying from a "local" reputable seller, and be prepared to return the item if "not as described" (checking of course what actually is said and shown in the listing).

Finally, are these really "fakes" anyway? Do they claim to use a genuine "Prolific" chip (or whoever makes the 340) or support break signalling? A "real fake" (if you understand what I mean) might have an empty crystal can (or even a false SSOP) on the PCB, if these become considered as defining charactersistics of a "good" adapter.

Cheers, Alan.
 
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manuka

Senior Member
Alan: There's probably more than one fake USB-D9 cable maker of course- Prolific are engaged in a dispute relating to mainland Chinese variants of their PL-2303HX. For some applications they might be quite OK, lacking just the PICAXE need for a "break".

I'm not persuading folks to buy what may be IP rip offs- fake or genuine!These blue adapters openly abound, & ("Know your Enemy" style) we've a duty to alert PICAXE users to their costs,features & whims.

My concern is essentially NZ focused in an effort to allow tight budget PICAXE projects to proceed.If AXE027s were more reasonably priced then naturally I'd point folks to them. (FWIW - in 2011 I talked local suppliers into lowering all their NZ PICAXE prices from a near stupidly costly level).As mentioned some postings back, I've visited NZ schools where just a few costly AXE027s are shared by many students,with excruciating delays & frustration to students wanting to work at home.

Note: Photos shown above have been compiled from assorted web sites. I've not personally opened the blue plastic covers. Stan. (user of numerous cables - including AXE027 & direct 3 wire serial )
 
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inglewoodpete

Senior Member
manuka said:
I've visited NZ schools where just a few costly AXE027s are shared by many students,with excruciating delays & frustration to students wanting to work at home.
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I think the situation is a little more complex than what people are indicating.

I speak as the owner of 1 x AXE026 (straight through serial cable), 1 x AXE027 (USB with FTDI chip) and several Prolific PL2302 cables sourced from Altronics and Jaycar in Australia. Also, "owner" of 2 x tech-savvy teenagers.

I regularly see parents who will happily buy over-rated video cards for their children's PCs when there have a perfectly good, albeit lower spec, video interface built in, for hundreds of dollars so that they can play the latest video games. Likewise, they buy the latest games to play on their PCs, XBoxes etc etc.

Meanwhile, the AXE027 cost less than most video games, even at its Australian price. As parents, perhaps we should get our own own priorities in order: education or numb brains?
 
S

srnet

Senior Member
Shirley there is a business opportunity for someone here.

Sell the Blue leads on eBay advertising them as 'works with PICAXE' and price them at $1 or so more than the standard blue lead.

If the demand is there and there is no requirement for support, its gotta be a winner.
 
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manuka

Senior Member
rsnet: Shhh- not so loud -several local NZ TradeMe suppliers already do this! (Example 1 and Example 2)
(NZ$4 =~£2) NZ & China have a free trade agreement & products pass both ways with no taxes or duties. I'm afraid the days of "NZ apples & mutton to EU/UK" are long over, as China is now almost NZ's largest market...

Inglewoodpete: Good points - the same teens no doubt demand designer clothing & private schools...

All parts of the world have haves & have nots (Aus/NZ included), & the likes of "smell of an oily electron" school budgets or bright spark kids in tight circumstances are those most influenced. I've related in the past helping a low decile NZ school organize a 12 hour (6 sessions x 2 hours) "take home" electronic project for ~200 enthusiastic 12-13 yo. kids,& was near gobsmacked when their budget of NZ$3 a head was revealed. Forget PICAXEs (which many were keen to use) as if it hadn't been for coin shops & solar garden lamps (+ my own considerable goodwill) almost NOTHING would have resulted. The same school had no qualms,thanks to earmarked funding, about organizing a 2 week $$$$ cultural/sporting trip to Japan for 30 students however.

Old PCs themselves are now peanuts - folks may pay you to take them away- but not so the crucial PICAXE programming cable. For years I've been saying "Just grab an old serial port laptop" - but these have now virtually vanished.
 
M

MartinM57

Moderator
Rumack: Can you fly this plane, and land it?
Ted Striker: Surely you can't be serious.
Rumack: I am serious... and don't call me Shirley.

Airplane! (1980)
 
G

Goeytex

Senior Member
I would guess that any hardware diagnostic tool included by Rev Ed would be a wasted effort and unnecessary cost.
As I look at the many "hardware not found" threads the root cause of the problems is generally related to the user
not reading and/or not following the manuals (except where cheap / fake adapters are being used)

If these users won't bother to read the manuals before bread boarding a Picaxe with the resistors misplaced
or missing, no bypass capacitors, and using weedy power supplies (or 9v batteries with Project Boards), it is
unlikely they will use a diagnostic tool without someone holding their hand through the process.
 
JimPerry

JimPerry

Senior Member
I think everyone is missing the point - I use a genuine Rev-Ed Axe027 and known working boards (OLED display etc) - I still get cable/Picaxe not found errors weekly.

Sometimes XP detects the cable on Com44 (or higher) but the software cannot go above Com15.

I can usually work through the problem - but God help a novice! :eek:
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
JimPerry said:
Sometimes XP detects the cable on Com44 (or higher)
Click to expand...
That seems very odd. Windows allocates a new COM port number when it finds a new device / interface the first time and should then re-use that at later times. The only way you should be getting a COM44 is if it has already allocated COM1-COM43.

Programming Editor, like other software, may default to a different port if it cannot find the previously used port and that can lead to Hardware Not Found which may be the case here if the AXE027 is mysteriously moving around. The COM port changing can happen if plugging the AXE027 into a different USB port but it should be static if not doing that.

Overall it looks more like a Windows or hardware issue than related to Programming Editor to me.
 
T

TAMeyer

Member
Multiple Com Ports Allocated to AXE027

Jim, I had the same problem.

Hippy, is correct. The previously specified port will be used again.

However, using various USB hubs and different hub ports (and different 027's) will over time, create multiple AXE027 listings.

PE sees all Coms previously allocated,whilst the Win Device Mgr normally does not show what are termed“Phantom” devices (see attached).

To remove the excess allocations, usethe search term:
“setdevmgr_show_nonpresent_devices=1”

Here is an example for XP.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315539

Terry
 

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hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
JimPerry said:
programming editor still falls over at COM16 ..much higher are available.:(
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That's a limitation of the Microsoft libraries which are used with the current Programming Editor and will not be there in the next generation PE6 version.
 
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