PC. to PC. com over Internet

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wombweller

Member
Hi all

I'm looking for advice on a project I'm thinking of doing.

The idea is I want to control a group of around 4 motors over the Internet.

From my home PC. I want to send info over the Internet to another PC. or router connected to the net. The remote PC. will receive the info from my home and then control the motors.The motors will be have to be wifi connected to the remote PC. and I will require to be able to control each more independently, start, stop, speed. The wifi module connected to the motors will need to be very small.

My questions to you are about the software I require at my home PC. to be able to manipulate the motors over the net.Also the hardware and software I could use at the remote side.

Hope you can offer any suggestions.

Regards Mark
 
M

MORA99

Senior Member
I would surgest using a regular radio link on the remote end istead of wifi.
Wifi units are quite expensive, but there are wifi-2-serial modules avaliable.
Each motor will need a picaxe.

And if you use a regular radio link the remote pc will also need a picaxe to send the commands.

To transfer the commands, maybe the easyiest "off the shelf" solution is a webserver on the remote pc, and a simple PHP script that handles the commands and transfers it onto the clients.


There is also some programs out there that will simulate a serial port over the internet, so that the local pc gets a virtual serial port, and what goes in that port, comes out of another virtual port on the remote pc, you will still need some software to recieve the commands, check for errors etc, and then control the motors.
 
W

wombweller

Member
MORA99 said:
I would surgest using a regular radio link on the remote end istead of wifi.
Wifi units are quite expensive, but there are wifi-2-serial modules avaliable.
Each motor will need a picaxe.

And if you use a regular radio link the remote pc will also need a picaxe to send the commands.

To transfer the commands, maybe the easyiest "off the shelf" solution is a webserver on the remote pc, and a simple PHP script that handles the commands and transfers it onto the clients.


There is also some programs out there that will simulate a serial port over the internet, so that the local pc gets a virtual serial port, and what goes in that port, comes out of another virtual port on the remote pc, you will still need some software to recieve the commands, check for errors etc, and then control the motors.
Click to expand...
Hi Thanks for the reply

so you suggest Radio link to the motors.Can you point out any so I can read up.
I did look at the Wiport but as you say this is quite expensive.Another I looked at was the Xbee but I was unsure if this met my requirements.

The important issue is easy access with both the server and the remote PC's having software that can either be purchased or written and then downloaded to either PC.You say 'off shelf ' can you suggest any.

The hardware on the server side ought to be plug and play (once built).

So to confirm as I am quite new to all this.
Server side use a picaxe with an RF. transmitter to decode and send the info to an RF. receiver and another picaxe connected to the motors?

Any suggestions on how this hardware server side might all go together?

Cheers Mark
 
M

MORA99

Senior Member
There are lots of radio units out there, Xbee is one of them.
Xbee hides some of the radio part from the picaxe, so that it can concentrate on other stuff (Xbee will handle retransmission, preamble and so on).
Xbee also has USB modules, so using these you could eliminate the picaxe part on the server pc side.

You will need to do some coding, since you have a 1-n relationship between server and motors.



One way to do it is buying a virtual com port software, so that you have a direct com link, that way you dont have to do the internet comm part.
(Actually the programming editor has this feature, but dont know if it will work over the internet)
At the remote end, you then need a small program that will recieve commands on a virtual serial port, and send the commands needed via the XBee stick.

The motors will contain a picaxe, and a Xbee module and just listen for new commands.
A small dip switch to set the address of each motor.

Since the server software is custom, someone need to do it, if you cannot get it done free, there are sites that offer freelance programmers at resonable rates, if you keep the protocol simple, they dont need any hardware other than maybe a Xbee stick (If the documentation is not enough).



An alternative solution would be to link the virtual com port on the server side to a real com port, here you connect a picaxe.
It really depends on where you want to write code, pixaxe or pc.
 
M

moxhamj

New Member
Thanks for the promo, slimplynth! Link is here http://www.instructables.com/id/Worldwide-microcontroller-link-for-under-20/

This works and it is simple to do if you break it down into component parts. So get it working over a wired internet first.

Down the track, yes you can do radio to the motors. You can go wifi to an old PC and control the motors from that PC, or you can go to a PC and then wireless with Radiotronix/Hope/Yishi/raw AM radio modules. If you don't want a PC on all the time, you can go for Lantronix modules that go from blue cat6 to RS232 directly and are addressable via the web. But that is getting a bit complicated.

Personally, I like to recycle old PCs. Go to a local computer store, and generally I find they will give you one (or fifty!) for nothing as long as you buy something nominal. Eg a computer game or something. An old PC can then act as the router from the internet to an RS232 connection. Or to a parallel port and you can then control things directly. (or use one of the USB to parallel adaptors).'

So there are all sorts of options. Maybe start with linking a couple of picaxes as per that instructable.
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
PNS plugged into a WiFi Bridge is probably the simplest of setups.

As Dr_A suggests, a PC can be used to do what the PNS does sitting between a WiFi Bridge and PICAXE controlled by serial, and act as a Bridge itself with the right WiFi card fitted. You'll have to write the software which runs on the PC.

If you can find a suitable WiFi Bridge / Router you will be able to run code on that and get serial out to PICAXE which is a more compact, low-power solution than a PC. You'll still have to write the code for the Bridge and get it to run. That will likely be a lot more complicated than for the PC setup.

Lantronix modules et al can replace the PC but would still need to connect to a WiFi Bridge, and you either need to write code to run on that and/or write software to run on the client PC's which will control the motors.
 
W

wombweller

Member
Dr_Acula said:
Thanks for the promo, slimplynth! Link is here http://www.instructables.com/id/Worldwide-microcontroller-link-for-under-20/

This works and it is simple to do if you break it down into component parts. So get it working over a wired internet first.

Down the track, yes you can do radio to the motors. You can go wifi to an old PC and control the motors from that PC, or you can go to a PC and then wireless with Radiotronix/Hope/Yishi/raw AM radio modules. If you don't want a PC on all the time, you can go for Lantronix modules that go from blue cat6 to RS232 directly and are addressable via the web. But that is getting a bit complicated.

Personally, I like to recycle old PCs. Go to a local computer store, and generally I find they will give you one (or fifty!) for nothing as long as you buy something nominal. Eg a computer game or something. An old PC can then act as the router from the internet to an RS232 connection. Or to a parallel port and you can then control things directly. (or use one of the USB to parallel adaptors).'

So there are all sorts of options. Maybe start with linking a couple of picaxes as per that instructable.
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Hi Dr Acula

Looks like a great topic.Best thing to do with that is get the parts and start working through it and see where it leads.

Is it at all possible that I could be sent the pdf. file on that project? I know it's available by pro. membership but I'm still a little worried about giving paypal passwords to forms that open up within a third party web pages. I could send payment to someone from my paypal account no probs.

Cheers Mark
 
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M

moxhamj

New Member
What has happened to Instructables?! Last week they gave you the pdf for free. Now they want to charge for it. Well, the pdf was mildly convenient but it ain't worth that much.

I logged in and as a member (and presumably as the author) the pdf is available again. But every time I click on it it times out for some reason. I don't know if that is my browser or instructables, because Google did it yesterday.

Can I suggest, don't send them any money, but bookmark the site and just work through the pages one at a time? Do you have a PC on your electronics workbench?

Addit: I'm still trying to work out what has happened to Instructables, but as a member I can see other people's pdfs. So - are you still able to join for free? Or are they charging for that too now?
 
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W

wombweller

Member
Dr_Acula said:
What has happened to Instructables?! Last week they gave you the pdf for free. Now they want to charge for it. Well, the pdf was mildly convenient but it ain't worth that much.

I logged in and as a member (and presumably as the author) the pdf is available again. But every time I click on it it times out for some reason. I don't know if that is my browser or instructables, because Google did it yesterday.

Can I suggest, don't send them any money, but bookmark the site and just work through the pages one at a time? Do you have a PC on your electronics workbench?

Addit: I'm still trying to work out what has happened to Instructables, but as a member I can see other people's pdfs. So - are you still able to join for free? Or are they charging for that too now?
Click to expand...
Hi
I suscribed but went down the pay route but then rejected to pay due to method.
It still recognises me as a member and I've suscribed to your posts :)

I won't send them any cash and even more so for someone else's work, don't mind paying the auther!!!

I have a pc. at my workbench but I need to get componants first.

Regards Mark
 
W

wombweller

Member
Dr_Acula said:
Radiotronix/Hope/Yishi/raw AM radio modules. If you don't want a PC on all the time, you can go for Lantronix modules that go from blue cat6 to RS232 directly and are addressable via the web. But that is getting a bit complicated.
.
Click to expand...
Hi Could you point me to the Raditronix/hopexxxxxx been to their website but did not find anything like thast description. (learning curve)

The ultimate goal would be to do away with the remote pc. and connect streight in to the router just to limmit hardwhare.

The wiportt looks good but is very expensive!!! been looking for similer projects to mine on the net but no luck yet.

Cheers!!
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
wombweller said:
The ultimate goal would be to do away with the remote pc. and connect streight in to the router just to limmit hardwhare.
Click to expand...
"Remote" and "Local" terminology can get confusing depending on which side one's looking from. I'd consider users controlling the PICAXE over the Net to be "Remote".

Also on "connect streight in to the router", do you mean users coming over the Net connect to the router, or the PICAXE hardware does, maybe both ?

Routers generally only pass data packets through themselves and on to something else, be that PC, PNS or other ). I think it might be a good idea to draw an overview, block diagram of what you want to achieve so everyone is clear what you are aiming for.
 
M

moxhamj

New Member
Yes, agree with Hippy. Walk before you can run. The lantronix interface and wireless stuff has been a work in progress for the last 2 years. Almost there but not quite, and it is great for the application it is designed for but would not be the best nor cheapest solution by any means. And there might be even better solutions out there if you want to get straight into a router, eg the work Stelios did in Python.

A detailed description of the problem would be great. Portable or not portable? Battery or mains power? Distance to transmit data? Speed of updates? Your electronics experience? Programming languages? Past picaxe projects?

Re instructables, looks like they charge to see it all on one screen. But free if you step through one at a time. Heck, go for the free option. http://www.instructables.com/account/gopronow?sourcea=nav&nxtPgName=Instructables+-+Make,+How+To,+and+DIY&nxtPg=/index

I must say that this stuff is great fun! But not such fun when you get stuck. I tend to do things in a modular way and the first place to start would be two picaxes - one doing a serout and one doing a serin and get the first one to read a pot, and the second one to output the voltage on the pot. If you can do that, we can get more things working.
 
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W

wombweller

Member
Hi all

I'm sorry of I may sound a little unsure the fact is that 1) I've never used picaxe and 2) Never done any over the net data transfer to before.

This is not to say I don't want to try!! Picaxe as a good online forum and help files so picking that up should be of.I know the difficult part is receiving the data from my Home pc. and turning it in to usable data at the remote side.

I've drawn up a bit of a diagram to help explain what I'm looking for.

I have some experience with PIC's and do own a programmer.My electronics skills are probably basic to say the least :) but I have done a few projects.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards to all

Mark
 

Attachments

W

wombweller

Member
hippy said:
"Remote" and "Local" terminology can get confusing depending on which side one's looking from. I'd consider users controlling the PICAXE over the Net to be "Remote".

Also on "connect streight in to the router", do you mean users coming over the Net connect to the router, or the PICAXE hardware does, maybe both ?

Routers generally only pass data packets through themselves and on to s0omething else, be that PC, PNS or other ). I think it might be a good idea to draw an overview, block diagram of what you want to achieve so everyone is clear what you are aiming for.
Click to expand...
Hi Hippy

Sorry if my terminology is not quite right but I will try and make things clear.If you can put the correct terminology to my headings then I can start as I mean to go on.

1) Me at home with my PC. entering instructions in to VB.

---------------------------------------------------------
(these instructions then go over the net).
---------------------------------------------------------

2) A modem at a remote place but connected to the net receives these instructions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
A PNS device or similar (not a PC.) sorts the information out and sends via RF.or wifi
to the motor controller
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
A RF. or wife receiver receives the data from the PNS. and controls the motors as instructed from my home PC.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope this helps make what I'm trying to achieve clearer?

Cheers Mark
 
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slimplynth

slimplynth

Senior Member
I'll not make any jokes about a yorkshire man and his wallet :D (probably because Im worse) but if I had the funds I'd go with the PNS just because it would be quicker/smoother with inherrently more potential for bigger and better things in a shorter time frame.

Just out of curiosity, what is the motor control for exactly? I'd imagine that at some point the use of sensors to monitor whatever the motors are doing would be handy. As i understand it from memory you pay for a PNS (which sports it's own webserver), plug it in to a router and you can log into 'it' from any PC with a web connection (using passworded access)

You have to write some code for the PNS webpage but that should be ok. Dynamic HTML to control real life devices and report sensor data... sounds like a love story.
 
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hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
I think the main issue comes down to the infrastructure in the bottom half and I can see two practical scenarios ( with variations on eac ) -

1) Connect a Wi-Fi Router to your wall socket on the right and have a Wi-Fi Bridge feeding a PNS on the left, the PNS controls PICAXE's which controls the motors via local wiring.

2) Connect a PNS to the Cable/ADSL modem or wall socket which controls a PICAXE to send motor data via 433MHz, XBee or infra-red. Appropriate PICAXE's receive that and control the motors via local wiring.

If smallness of equipment at the motor site is paramount, option 2 would seem to be best.

Given that you will likely need to feed electricity to the motors and equipment on the left, which will require wires, it may not be completely impractical to have a wired rather than a wireless system.
 
W

wombweller

Member
slimplynth said:
I'll not make any jokes about a yorkshire man and his wallet :D (probably because Im worse) but if I had the funds I'd go with the PNS just because it would be quicker/smoother with inherrently more potential for bigger and better things in a shorter time frame.

Just out of curiosity, what is the motor control for exactly? I'd imagine that at some point the use of sensors to monitor whatever the motors are doing would be handy. As i understand it from memory you pay for a PNS (which sports it's own webserver), plug it in to a router and you can log into 'it' from any PC with a web connection (using passworded access)

You have to write some code for the PNS webpage but that should be ok. Dynamic HTML to control real life devices and report sensor data... sounds like a love story.
Click to expand...
Hey slimplynth

I don't mind any jokes about a Yorkshireman's spending habits :p

Initially this is just a learning curve project.I'm using small motors in this instance as I could use them to control security cameras pan and tilt.Also when completely on the ball I want to use motors in a clock project.

I know there are off shelf cameras that already meet the requirement but as I said once this project is finished I will have learned an whole host of interesting things.

If a PNS. system meets my requirements I will investigate that route.

Cheers Mark
 
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W

wombweller

Member
hippy said:
I think the main issue comes down to the infrastructure in the bottom half and I can see two practical scenarios ( with variations on eac ) -

1) Connect a Wi-Fi Router to your wall socket on the right and have a Wi-Fi Bridge feeding a PNS on the left, the PNS controls PICAXE's which controls the motors via local wiring.

2) Connect a PNS to the Cable/ADSL modem or wall socket which controls a PICAXE to send motor data via 433MHz, XBee or infra-red. Appropriate PICAXE's receive that and control the motors via local wiring.

If smallness of equipment at the motor site is paramount, option 2 would seem to be best.

Given that you will likely need to feed electricity to the motors and equipment on the left, which will require wires, it may not be completely impractical to have a wired rather than a wireless system.
Click to expand...
Hi Hippy

Both your suggestion sound interesting I will give them a close look.See size is an issue only that this time the smaller the better as I have other thought on use with clocks so might as well start small.

I like the idea of the PNS being connected to a modem (option 2)

When You say via the local wiring? I would read this as you mean send the data through the house mains, please clarify.

BTW. I think option 2 fits my diagram.

Cheers Mark
 
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M

MORA99

Senior Member
There is also simpleLAN and various serial-2-ethernet adapters if you want something a bit cheeper than the PNS.

I am not impressed with the stability of a simpleLAN but I could just be unlucky, I see errors in the webpages far too often, but for simple commans it could work ok (I have used it for over a year now to control 8 mains relays).

The simpleLAN is a self contained webserver, which you interface to the picaxe with a simple serial protocol, you upload some webpages to the simpleLAN and the picaxe and simpleLAN can then share a 100 or so registers of different size.
So on the website you make a form that saves the new values for each motor, picaxe reads that in a loop and sends commands if changed to the motors.

simpleLAN is 30$ last time I checked.
 
W

wombweller

Member
MORA99 said:
There is also simpleLAN and various serial-2-ethernet adapters if you want something a bit cheeper than the PNS.

I am not impressed with the stability of a simpleLAN but I could just be unlucky, I see errors in the webpages far too often, but for simple commans it could work ok (I have used it for over a year now to control 8 mains relays).

The simpleLAN is a self contained webserver, which you interface to the picaxe with a simple serial protocol, you upload some webpages to the simpleLAN and the picaxe and simpleLAN can then share a 100 or so registers of different size.
So on the website you make a form that saves the new values for each motor, picaxe reads that in a loop and sends commands if changed to the motors.

simpleLAN is 30$ last time I checked.
Click to expand...

Hi

Could you point me to a simpleLan I googled and did not find anything much that matches your description.

Cheers.
 
M

MORA99

Senior Member
wombweller said:
Hi

Could you point me to a simpleLan I googled and did not find anything much that matches your description.

Cheers.
Click to expand...
Hmm, it seems they have stopped selling it, directly atlest.
Their website is http://www.avcomtec.com/

All I can find now is sale leads for resale of the product.

I have sent them a mail asking for more information on the board.

In the mean time, here is the documentation pdf.
 

Attachments

M

MORA99

Senior Member
AV-COM said:
Thanks for the inquiry. The software costs to maintain a viable product became prohibitive,besides sales volume was minimal. The product is no longer available.
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So simpleLAN is no longer an option.
(Untill someone make a similar open project based on the ENC28J60)
 
M

MORA99

Senior Member
wombweller said:
Hi

what about this xport-

http://www.gridconnect.com/xport.html

Mark
Click to expand...
Cant find much about how the webserver part of it works.
The Ethernet-2-serial is a feature many products offer, and could work well in your system.

Your local pc will then make a "telnet" connection to the remote and send commands, or use the webserver if you can find some documentation for it.
A bit more expensive than the old SL, but may be the easyiest way to get it going.
 
slimplynth

slimplynth

Senior Member
http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/embedded-device-servers/xport.html

Yeah, i took a brief moment to find an alternative but wasn't sure if it would be useful... because then i immmediately thought.. it will be a massive undertaking to learn it without loads of support.. at the price of the PNS and with all it's back up you had have technical's help plus the mods and Hippy to help (plus all the other people who have already contributed knowledge to the forum).

I try to look at my free time in much the same way as my work time - it could take a long long time to get to grips with the xport linked above. If it was for my work i'd be better of going with the PNS and saving X hrs @ $XX.xx and knowing fairly confidently that in the end id have learned the basics from the PNS to appply the knowledge to something like the XPORT.

55 hours a week spent at work, minimal time in the evening to learn other things..I value free time at double whhat my works pays me, its sometimes good to have things made simpler or practically handed to you on a plate.

I'm not purposely trying to act as an agent for Rev-ed :) but logic prevails.. a PNS would be simpler, have more support and in terms of time/$ cost you less.

You have a big project and as suggested by Dr_Acula planning it in a modular way you could start with the motor control and work up to getting it connected to the web (time to save money)
 
W

wombweller

Member
slimplynth said:
http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/embedded-device-servers/xport.html

Yeah, i took a brief moment to find an alternative but wasn't sure if it would be useful... because then i immmediately thought.. it will be a massive undertaking to learn it without loads of support.. at the price of the PNS and with all it's back up you had have technical's help plus the mods and Hippy to help (plus all the other people who have already contributed knowledge to the forum).

I try to look at my free time in much the same way as my work time - it could take a long long time to get to grips with the xport linked above. If it was for my work i'd be better of going with the PNS and saving X hrs @ $XX.xx and knowing fairly confidently that in the end id have learned the basics from the PNS to appply the knowledge to something like the XPORT.

55 hours a week spent at work, minimal time in the evening to learn other things..I value free time at double whhat my works pays me, its sometimes good to have things made simpler or practically handed to you on a plate.

I'm not purposely trying to act as an agent for Rev-ed :) but logic prevails.. a PNS would be simpler, have more support and in terms of time/$ cost you less.

You have a big project and as suggested by Dr_Acula planning it in a modular way you could start with the motor control and work up to getting it connected to the web (time to save money)
Click to expand...

Pheeeeeeew!!! your right!!! I have come to the same conclusion also_Obviously in the beginning I have to see what available and effective taking different opinions.

PNS. it is.

Hippy's option 2 in a previous post sound good to me.
http://www.picaxeforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=109281&postcount=20

Maybe we can talk about about what parts I may require.

Thanks so much, can't wait to start.

Mark
 
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slimplynth

slimplynth

Senior Member
nbw said:
@ slim: you get bonuses?!?! Isn't there a recession on!?! ;-)
Click to expand...
They have too, it's in my contract - it's hardly a Banker's Bonus though... its to cover fuel costs to work, as im not officially a manager i don't qualify for a company car/fuel card. They still get me cheaper than they should, otherwise i'd have a PNS at my house, one at work and one at the missus' ;-)

I should (fingers crossed) be able to afford a PNS in a couple of weeks, skynet will need one. Made no progress with the blimp - work, work, work... :(
 
W

wombweller

Member
slimplynth said:
They have too, it's in my contract - it's hardly a Banker's Bonus though... its to cover fuel costs to work, as im not officially a manager i don't qualify for a company car/fuel card. They still get me cheaper than they should, otherwise i'd have a PNS at my house, one at work and one at the missus' ;-)

I should (fingers crossed) be able to afford a PNS in a couple of weeks, skynet will need one. Made no progress with the blimp - work, work, work... :(
Click to expand...
Fortunatly I can just about afford a PNS net server. btw, these have a tutorial but you have to pay to see it. :mad:
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_108038/article.html

So while I'm shopping at Rev-edd for the PNS. what other usful bits should I buy, don't want to purchase bits and wait for delivery only to realise I forgot sumet!!!

Cheers Mark
 
W

wombweller

Member
Hi

I just purchased the PNS and some other bits and bobs so it's now beans on toast for all the Family for a month.

When these arive I will let you all know how I get on.

Cheers Guys for the help.

I will be back !!!!!

Mark
 
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