malfunction in configurating the Axe027 cable?

E

emuller

Member
So the situation about the problems I talked about in my recent post about the AxeStack have clarified a little.

Just an update: the Axe027 cable was working normally on my computer, and then for no reason that I can detect (i.e. I made no changes to the computer setup - all I really did was install a new circuit...), every attempt to program was met with a "Hardware not found" error - even just clicking on the "firmware" button in the "mode" tab on MacAxepad yeilded the same error.

At first, I thought it was the PIC, or at least the programmer board, but I took a NEW apple mac, and installed the Axe027 sofware on that, without attempting to program anything, and simply plugging the cable into the USB port, and used MacAxepad to check the cable firmware (without plugging into a chip, board or anything) and it reports that it CAN find the hardware (note that there seems to be some nomenclature confusion between "firmware" and "hardware"...?).

In any case, the result is this - the cable WAS working on my computer, and I am quite sure that I did nothing to modify the system, and then it stopped. However, it DOES work on a different computer. So the problem has to do with my own setup - but I've not changed anything, so I don't know where to start to try to diagnose the problem?

Any hints would be appreciated.
My computer is a Macbook, running OSX 10.5.6
the firmware in the Axe027 cable is ver 8.8

Thanks.
Emuller
 
J

Janne

Senior Member
Hi, I'd suggest you use the serial port test button and see what kind of voltages you have on the picaxe serin pin.. Just to check that the usb cable hardware is working ok.

Another way is to use the normal serial cable for the task and see what happens.

I had similar kind of problems with the AXE027 cable, and i've now reverted back to using the normal serial cable, and in the case of my laptop, the serial cable via an usb-to-serial converter. Works like a treat.
 
E

emuller

Member
Thanks for your suggestion Janne,
As you suggested, I had checked the test button in MacAxepad, and it turned out a ~5v reading.
I've even tried to "uninstall" the port connection, however there must be some residual settings, because when I "reinstall" FDTIUSB, my system does not detect the usb cable as a "new" device any more.

Now, when I installed the cable on the OTHER USB port, it did detect it as new, but the same problems occurred.

I'm certain the cable is functionng correctly, since I can operate it with now issues on a different macbook.

One point to note might be that in my System preferences>network does NOT show the Axe027 as connected, and cannot actually make a connection to it even after I explicitly tell it to try (via the "connect" button..).

I really don't want to fork out another $80 bucks for a different cable (thats what it costs to get it airmailed..), I would just like to get my system configured properly to talk to it -and it IS my system, not the cable.

Thanks for your help so far.
Emuller
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
emuller said:
I took a NEW apple mac, and installed the Axe027 sofware on that, without attempting to program anything, and simply plugging the cable into the USB port, and used MacAxepad to check the cable firmware (without plugging into a chip, board or anything) and it reports that it CAN find the hardware (note that there seems to be some nomenclature confusion between "firmware" and "hardware"...?)
Click to expand...
In terms of downloading and other serial port operations from within AXEpad, there's an initial check to see if the computer has anything through which a PICAXE board can be contacted; whether there is any port and cable configured for the computer and whether it has been selected for use.

Then there's a check to see if there is a PICAXE at the other end of the cable which is responding.

Finally a check is made to make sure the PICAXE is the right type to be downloading into.

This leads to three categories of error message for all AXEpad platforms though the exact wording can differ ...

"No serial port found" - The port selected for use cannot be used. The drivers were not installed, the cable is not connected, the wrong port has been selected, or the port is being used by some other application.

"Hardware not found" - The port is present but the cable is not connected, the PICAXE board is not powered-up, the PICAXE is not responding, or the wrong port has been selected.

"Incorrect firmware version" - There is a mismatch between how AXEpad is configured and the actual PICAXE being programmed.

It can get a little complicated because systems may say a port exists once the drivers are installed even though the port is really unusable at the time because the cable is not connected, others may not report the port as existing until the cable is plugged in. This is particularly the case for USB-to-serial cables. Some may generate an error when an unusable port is opened for use, others may not generate an error until an attempt is made to use the port to process data - the difference between a shop with a locked door and a "closed" sign, and a shop with an open door and an assistant who then tells you, "sorry, but we're closed".

In addition, some USB cables may be given the same port number or identifier regardless of which port or hub they are connected to, sometimes they are given different port numbers depending on where they are plugged in, sometimes only the current connection is known and reported as available, sometimes all connections ever used are remembered and reported as available although only the one with the cable plugged-in will work.

I'm not sure why an AXE027 should 'disappear off the map'. Use View->Options->Port and USB Setup to list which ports the computer believes are available and, for Mac, enter the corresponding port identifying number in the port name field. Double check the correct port is selected or identifier entered and hasn't been accidentally altered. If USB Setup doesn't show the port I'm afraid I cannot give a simple answer as to why not.

Because there are a variety of possible error messages it will help if you can report exactly what those error messages say.
 
Technical

Technical

Technical Support
Staff member
After deleting/reinstalling the driver you may have to rebuild the extensions cache:

Go>Utilities>Terminal

First we change to root:

sudo -s (followed by your login password)

Now we need to delete and rebuild the cache

rm /System/Library/Extensions.mkext
kextcache -k /System/Library/Extensions

Now restart your computer.
Insert the AXE027 cable.
Start Terminal again and type
cd /dev
ls -a

There should now be an entry similar to
tty.usbserial-xxxxxxxx
where xxxxxxxx is a unique number for your AXE027 cable.
 
E

emuller

Member
Thanks for all your replies and suggestions.
I've tried to implement them, but to no avail. Just to make it known, I'm currently haveing problems with a PICAXE-18X



Technical - the version of MacAxePad I have is, I believe the latest, ver 0.13 (I downloaded it yesterday anyhow) and in any case, I no gosubs - nonetheless I added the interrupt line, which unfortunately didn't help.

Hippy- the exact error message when I attempt to program the chip is as follows. Firstly, a window briefly opens which reports:
--
PICAXE-18X Enhanced Compiler. Version 0.7
Copyright (c) 1996-2009 Revolution Education Ltd
All rights reserved.
www.picaxe.co.uk

Compiled successfully.
Memory used = 15 out of 2048 bytes.

Searching for hardware on /dev/tty.usbserial-0000201A.
--
that window closes, and a new informational window opens which declares that:
--
Download for PICAXE-18X on 0000201A Failed

Error: Harware not found on /dev/
tty.usbserial-0000201A!
--

I have checked that this is the correct port, in both options>port and also in the /dev directory:
>ls -lhtr /dev|grep usb
>crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 10, 4 Mar 28 21:55 tty.usbserial-0000201A
>crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 10, 5 Mar 28 21:55 cu.usbserial-0000201A

From your description, it seems then to not be finding the pic. I've checked that it has 5V across the #5 and #14 pin (actually ON the pic, as per the checklist!), I've also checked that the serin pin goes high when I check "high" in the test box (options>port), Ive also replace the PIC with a brand new on, TWICE (and with the same type of pic - 18X).


Technical-
I did all that too, (thanks for showing me how to do that!) - and re-added the Axe07 to the "network".
This actually confuses me a little - it's showing up as modem connection, which makes me worry now about the settings in the "advanced" options.
For example, what kind of problems could be cause by a seeting for "disconnect if idle for 10 minutes"? or, "redail if busy"? what SHOULD these settings be? I can't for the life of me figure out what is the most appropriate.

In any case, thanks again for all your help so far. I'd really like to get it working, since I have a super robot almost ready to go.... it's just brainless right now...

Emuller
 
Technical

Technical

Technical Support
Staff member
All of this definately points to the software and USB cable working fine - you would not get the high/low signal or the messages you are getting if the cable/driver were not connecting correctly. Forget about the 'network settings' they are not relevant.

We suspect the hardware - power supply / connector for the cable etc. etc.
 
E

emuller

Member
Okay thanks for the info.
The power supply I think, is ok, because I can confirm that the pic is getting 5v across the vcc and gnd, I'll double check the hardware, I suppose you mean the "Axe Stack"? I'm not so clear what you might mean about the cable connection - since that seemed to be working ok too when I checked with the serin pin.. I think I misunderstand.

In any case, I'll try to put together my own programming board to see if I can manage it that way.
Emuller.
 
E

emuller

Member
Hmmm,
Okay so my own board, built according to page 35 of manual one, also seems to fail.
I'm confused, and I'm out of ideas too.
 
E

emuller

Member
Oh, I should note, because I think it's important to help - I was using a mains-transformer to supply the 5V to the pic..
The AxeStack has a voltage regulator too.
thanks folks. I'll try to think about what to do next.
Emuller
 
Technical

Technical

Technical Support
Staff member
You keep mentioning PIC not PICAXE - they are two different things... it is definately a PICAXE-18X chip you are using?
 
E

emuller

Member
Whoops, sorry, I assumed it was the abbrevated form of "PICAXE".
Yes, it's definitely a picaxe I'm using.

Originally, I was able to program the chip, and then for no discernable reason, just after I set up a new test circuit, the programming stopped functioning, returning that "hardware not found" result.

So there IS something wrong somewhere, I've just run out of ideas on what diagnostics to make, to find out what the problem is.
Emuller
 
P

papaof2

Senior Member
Did you do a hard reset during the programming download? Remove power from the chip and turn power back on when "Downloading" appears on the screen. If the PICAXE is in a tight loop, it may not respond to the download. Removing power ensures that it can see the download signal.

John
 
E

emuller

Member
Thanks Papaof2,
The MacAxepad doesn't even get to the programming stage - it is still searching for the picaxe.
However, I disconnected the power during this stage, to see if it might have a similar effect, yet the same "hardware not found" error occurred.

I suppose what would really help, is advice on some status flags, or settings that I can probe - aside from the power to the chip, and the "high" test settingon MaxAxepad, since all of these seem to indicate that the connection/cable is working properly. Are there any other diagnostics that I can check, to try to find out what has happened? Any settings on my computer that I need to examine?

Thanks again
Emuller
 
E

emuller

Member
Actually, a further observation that I just made, if it's helpful:
While checking the voltage across serin-gnd, and with the test button set to high, I noticed that is was not consistent - i.e. it varied about every 5 seconds from 4.8v down to about 1.5 v. The power supply voltage, on the other hand, is quite rock steady at 5.09v
I have no idea if it is significant or not, but it's extra information!
Thanks again,
Emuller
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
emuller said:
The MacAxepad doesn't even get to the programming stage - it is still searching for the picaxe.
However, I disconnected the power during this stage, to see if it might have a similar effect, yet the same "hardware not found" error occurred.
Click to expand...
The Hard Reset process is to turn the board off until that "Searching for hardware" message is shown, then power the board on. Alternatively, hold the PICAXE reset button until that point then release. The first thing a PICAXE does when starting up is to check if there is a download so this overcomes the problem of an earlier downloaded program later ignoring download requests.

The two other things you can do are -

Programming the PICAXE on another computer. That will confirm it works, and by using a program as follows, you can check the PICAXE is communicating back.

Do
SerTxd( "I'm alive!" )
Loop

Connect that back the computer you are having problems with ( without downloading anything ) see if what it is sending out is shown in the Terminal window.

The second is to disconnect the cable from the PICAXE and connect the Serial Out and Serial In of the 3.5mm jack and see if what is typed in Terminal comes back. Protect the tip of the jack so it doesn't get shorted to and destroy the cable electronics, then use something to connect the ring and sleeve together, a croc-clip or twist of wire can do the trick.
 
E

emuller

Member
Okay, Thanks Hippy,
I was easily able to make the second test and confirm that the cable is connected ok, but I think this was already clear?
I'm attempting to program the chip using a second handy macbook, but it seems to be having a different kind of error when attempting to program (along the lines of "Problem opening .Asm as TextInputStream", which I've attempted to follow up) - however, it DOES report "Firmware check Successful", when I click on Options>firmware (Notably, this step failed on my own laptop and resulted in the "Hardware not found" error).
I'll report later if I can find a computer elsewhere, or if the other problem on the other laptop is solved.
 
E

emuller

Member
Just an addendum too.
I put a jumper across pins 2 and 3 on the carrier board also, (i.e. without the picaxe mounted) and repeated the test you mention above - with success, so at least THAT part of the board seems to be wired correctly to the computer (and, as I've already checked, as is the power supply at 5.08V).....
hmm. Again, I'm at my wit's end..
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
I'm not sure what to suggest - The PICAXE works, the cable works, both send and receive, the drivers are installed and working if you can do the loop-back test. It's bizarre that you can do the loop-back test but neither Firmware Check nor Download works on the same computer.

We'll try and think of what else there is to try but it may have come down to operating system re-install time.
 
E

emuller

Member
Oh darn.
Okay, I think that is probably the best way too. Hopefully I don't destroy my computer while I attempt it.

Since I will be doing this, are there any parameters, switches, variables etc. that you think I should take careful note of, for future reference (i.e. to compare the "before" and "after"?)

Any hints on reinstalling osx would be appreciated too - it seems a little daunting...
thanks again for your help and your patience.
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
I'm afraid I know nothing about installing OSX. It may be worth holding off on that to see if anyone else does have any suggestions to try first.

If it were my system I'd likely not re-install until I'd had the PICAXE/AXE027 working and downloading on some other computer ( Mac, Linux or Windows ) as that would demonstrate everything was working, that the problem was with this particular machine.

Also you have to accept that an OS re-install may not solve the problem.

One thing I do know is never re-install an OS in a hurry or under pressure; that causes things to be forgotten, go wrong or take longer than it should. On things to check before starting regardless of OS; make sure you know all your accounts, user names, email, server names, addresses, passwords and even phone numbers, that you have email and favourites etc backed-up along with any data you want to keep, that you know the URL's of any web sites you use, identify what actual hardware you have and make sure you have all driver disks - and of course have an OS install disk and any registration code required to hand. Make sure you are not open to virsus attacks during the install process.
 
Technical

Technical

Technical Support
Staff member
Try upgrading to 0.1.4 of MacAXEpad just uploaded - that should solve the issue on your other Mac at least.
 
E

emuller

Member
Okay, To pull this thread back to all about me.. .(me me me me..)

So the second computer, now updated with the new version software, seems to be working ok, but it is now ALSO returning a "hardware not found" error. Fortunately, I suppose this means that the problem is not on the computer, but it is somwhere downstream of the computer (and downstream of the cable too, since that is working ok.. )

Which leaves the board or the picaxe itself.
I thought that I'd already tested both of these though.

1. I made a new board (since I was using a "AxeStack") which is really just the ciruict on page 7 of manual 1.

2. I replace the picaxe twice, with brand new ones.

Which leaves me with very little, but still the possibility that the board or chip is funky, blown up or destroyed somehow.
So, I followed the checklist in the manual (page 42, manual 1) and all seems ok.
Indicently, I notice one thing in the checklist, where it mentions the reset being connected by a 47k resistor to V, but this is not shown pulled up in the
download diagram on page 7 - consequently, I didn't put it in my second programming board (which just has the two resistors, power, ground and the cable input).

So, I need to check that the board is ok, and I need to check that the picaxe is ok.
Meauring power supply all seems ok.
resistance across point a (on the cable input) to pin 2 is zero
resistance b and pin 3 = 22 k
resistance pin 3 and 5 is 30k

So the board seems to check out ok?

Which leaves the picaxe (s, I have three of them, none of them work!).
I have no idea what computer-independent tests I can run on the picaxes to see if they are functioning. Any ideas?

Thanks again
Emuller.
 
E

emuller

Member
Yes, I see.
But that is reference to the minimum operating circuit?. I am simply trying to download at this point, and so I thought the setup on page 7 would be sufficient - perhaps it is not?

In any case, I am away from my house at present, and so I'll have to wait until I return to make the modification.
 
lbenson

lbenson

Senior Member
Downloading is an operation, so the minimum operating circuit is required to download. The "M" series chips don't have reset pins, so that is not a part of their minimum operating circuit, but for those which have reset, it must be connected properly.
 
E

emuller

Member
Hmm, okay , I'll give that a try later on..
All this is new information - it seems to be different to what is stated on page 35 of manual #1, which says that there is nothing different that I need to do for my 18X chip:

"The USB download circuit is identical for all PICAXE chips. It consists of 3 wires from the PICAXE chip to the AXE027 USB cable. One wire sends data from the computer to the serial input of the PICAXE, one wire transmits data from the serial output of the PICAXE to the computer, and the third wire provides a common ground."

There's not a mention of tying the reset high - but my god, I hope this is the problem....
 
B

BeanieBots

Moderator
There are TWO requirements.
The minimum download circuit AND the minimum for the chip itself.

The minimum download is as shown but chips with reset MUST have the line pulled high or they simply won't work. Just as chips which require a resonator (eg the now obsololete 28X) MUST have a resonator to work. Taking it to silly levels, ALL chips MUST have a power supply but that's not included as part of the minimum download circuit either.

Stronly suggest the enhanced download circuit if you want to use the ADC functions.
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
It's all likely to get a bit confusing across an upgrade of software and manuals, but the latest Manual 1 (6.8) which comes with version 5.2.3 of the Programming Editor states on page 7, "At a glance - download circuit", which is correct, but it is not the minimal circuit as noted.

Immediately above that it also states, "Reset pin: The reset pin (if present) must never be left floating. This will give unreliable operation. Always tie high (ie to the positive supply) via a 4k7 or 10k resistor".

Pages 25 to 31 show the minimum operating circuits and re-iterates the point about not leaving a reset pin floating, and this is also stated numerous times eslewhere in the manual.

Arguably they are not the minimum operating circuits because it is not absolutely necessary to fit a download interface ( providing Serial In is pulled down ) and one doesn't have to actually include any reset button, but excepting the case for pedantry, they are for most intents and purposes the minimum required.

So moving on to the problem at hand; yes, the 18X does need to have a pull-up fitted on reset for reliable operation. Without it, all sorts of peculiar and unexpected things may happen.

[ PS : I moved the unrelated posts out of this thread to keep focus on the issue in hand ]
 
E

emuller

Member
Hmm,
Okay, so I put a pull-up on pin 4 on my own board, but to no avail.
I have to say that I didn't really expect it to - since I was using a pre-fab board before hand anyhow, which I suppose has the pull up resistor in there somewhere. - and it was with THAT board that the problem started...
Any diagnostics I can run on the chips themselves, without the computer?
or any other suggestions?

Thanks again...
I have no idea what is going on....
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
Unfortunately, I've no idea either, but to recap ...

1) It was working on your Mac, then stopped working when you changed the circuit. Neither firmware checking nor download work.

2) But it still worked okay on another computer.

3) Another Mac worked so far as firmware checking, but download did not work because of the "Cannot open .Asm file" error.

4) With the latest AXEpad on the Mac in (3), it still won't download.

It's all a bit confusing because everything seems to behaving differently depending on which system you are using and what could be a problem seems to be cancelled out by what is working on another system.

The driver issues may be playing a part on your initially working Mac but that shouldn't be the case on the second which could do a Firmware Check successfully.

It may help if you run all the tests again on all the systems you can lay your hands on and detail what does work with each ( both the AXEstack and your other board ), using Hard Reset and turning on after clicking the Firmware Check and and the searching for hardware" during download -

1) Cable loop-back test using Terminal
2) Firmware Check with AXEstack
3) Download to AXEstack
4) Firmware Check with your own board
5) Download to your own board

Maybe from that we can determine what is going on, and it will at least clear up any confusion which may have crept in as to the state of affairs with each system now we've run onto the fourth page of posts.
 
E

emuller

Member
Wow,
Thanks Hippy,
However, I think there may be confusion; there are only two computers involved - my own macbook, and the "other" macbook (the "other" one is the one that initially had the "cannot open ASM file" error". I haven't tried a third one (as I think you're saying in number 2).

1) It was working on your Mac, then stopped working when you changed the circuit. Neither firmware checking nor download work.

2) Another Mac worked so far as firmware checking, but download did not work because of the "Cannot open .Asm file" error.

3) With the latest AXEpad on the Mac in (2), it still won't download.

4) With the latest AXEpad on the mac in (1), it still won't download.

So the behaviour of computers in 1 and 2 are the same.

It seems to me that the picaxe might be stuffed - which would mean that all three are stuffed - which would be unfortunate and unlikely, but possible, and, I think this would give the problems that I'm seeing.
Perhaps I just have to find a different vendor of the picaxes.

Can I just double-check too. All three chips have "PIC16F88 I/P" written on them. That IS a picaxe 18x, right?
 
B

BeanieBots

Moderator
emuller said:
Can I just double-check too. All three chips have "PIC16F88 I/P" written on them. That IS a picaxe 18x, right?
Click to expand...
NO. Abolutely not. It just means you have a 16F88 PIC chip.
To be a PICAXE it must also have the bootloader already installed on the 16F88 chip. There no visual way of telling the two apart.

A 16F88 MIGHT be a PICAXE 18X.
 
E

emuller

Member
Okay,
This is suddenly disturbing for me...since all of a sudden there seems to be a good chance that the two new chips that I thought were picaxes, are not, and that I managed to somehow fry the first one with a dodgy circuit.

So now I have two new questions, and the cynic in me already knows the answers.

1. Is there any way, apart from putting the chip into a programing board to check if it has a bootloader installed on it.
and
2. if the chip does NOT have the bootloader installed on it, and it's blank... can I do it myself?

if the answer is no to both of these, I think it's probably time to end this thread....
 
B

BeanieBots

Moderator
Put an LED (via resistor) on serout.
Toggle serin.
If it's a PICAXE then 'some' activity should be observed on serout.

To be honest though, the above is no more complex than using the download circuit and trying the 'firmware' button.

It is NOT possible to install the bootloader yourself.
 
E

emuller

Member
Okay,
Then my assumption for now will be that I roasted the first chip (which was definitely a picaxe, since it WAS working before being fried), and that the other two chips I have are not pixaxes, and never have been.

My final question then:
Are there picaxe vendors in japan, or do I need to import them all from uk/usa?

Then .. I think we're done. apologies to you all, but thank you VERY much for your patience..
 
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