Heads up - Micromite

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manuka

Senior Member
The latest (May 2014) Australian "Silicon Chip" introduces Geoff "Back Shed" Graham's Micromite - a 28 pin skinny DIP Microchip PIC32MX150/250 32 bit micro that's pre-programmed with the free MMBasic firmware. A 44 pin SMD version with 33 I/Os is also available,as are diverse accessories - all at reasonable prices.

Fear not Rev.Ed - I for one consider the Micromite more of a PICAXE extension rather than competitor, especially since the BASICs are very akin. It may particularly appeal for fire breathing projects that demand greater memory,faster execution speeds and floating point maths than PICAXEs. Such needs otherwise may require tedious lower level coding, or bulky & costly hardware. Stan.
 
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john2051

New Member
Hi Stan, there are plenty of cheaper versions than the one you mention, in the uk. Some that Geoff was working on with other people, changed his mind and left them dangling. The item in question had a similar name. Its a real shame the picaxe firmware cant be ported over to one of these mx1 or mx2 processors.
regards john
 
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MFB

Senior Member
Thanks for heads-up manuka. I have been following Geoff's PIC32 projects for some time and am pleased that he has taken the logical step of producing a version of the Maximite Basic for embedded applications.

The Micromite is more of a big brother to the PICAXE than a competitor (I'll just say "horses-for-courses" before anyone else) so definitely fear not Rev.Ed.
 
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John West

Senior Member
I'd try to say "horses-for-courses," first, but I only think I know what it means from the context. I suspect it's quite similar to, "the right tool for the right job." So far, I haven't come upon anything I can't use a PICAXE for, (thanks to matherp and his sig gen code.) When I do, I'll probably give up on the project anyway. :)
 
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MFB

Senior Member
On the theme of "the right tool for the right job" don't forget the related phrase "if the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail".
 
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Marcwolf

Senior Member
I can see a place for each of them.
The PicAxe is great for doing small embedded work where the Micromite has the advantage of string and floating point maths.

1. Micromite has only 2 serial ports
2. Picxe has many.

Dave
 
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MFB

Senior Member
Although the Micromite only has two hardware serial ports, there is no reason why software serial ports could not be implemented on digital I/O lines. I'm surprised this feature is not supported by Maximite Basic (my be I have just not spotted it).
 
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manuka

Senior Member
From an email just sent me
I made a PIC user group aware of the Micromite, more out of interest for the PIC content than anything else, as they're generally professional Microchip software engineers, and who wouldn't have seen the Silicon Chip articles, being mostly in the US and UK.

Here's a reply from today. The Dragon32 he mentions was another of the early 80s UK computers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_32/64

----------------

I had a blank MX150 on my bench so I decided to flash it with MicroMite
Basic and have a look.

My expectations were not high, and it is at least 30 years since I did any
code in GWBASIC, but I was reasonably impressed.
As others have mentioned, as a training platform for schools, or even just
to build one for your kids, it is a great starting point.

I decided to see if I could come up with something different to do with it
using the features of the BASIC Interpreter.
Now only 2 days later I have a surprisingly capable Electronic Organ /
Synthesizer.

I am using the Built in Keypad Function to scan a 1 Octave Keyboard and 3
Function Keys, The Analog Input Function to read a POT for the Gate Timing,
the IR Function to allow an IR Remote to apply Pitch Bend and two PWM
Channels for Primary and Secondary Oscillators, with variable pulse width.

it can play a full 8 Octave range, and have tremolo effect, Chorus, etc.
and plays a passable rendition of a Pipe Organ all the way to a Flute or
Pan Pipes. Not bad for 2 days of testing, a breadboard, 16 switches, 1
Trimmer, an IR Decoder and $4 PIC32.

I have not tried it on any kids yet as I can't get it back from my wife :)

Bottom line is, MicroMite has its limitations and I think I have found a
few bugs that I will report, but it also has great potential, especially
for education, I am glad I decided to try it. Thanks for pointing it
out, it was a fun regression that brought back fond memories of my Dragon32
computer.

Chris
- See more at: http://www.brightsparks.org.nz/the-forum/ViewMessages/16793/ForumID/3/TopicID/16793/#84921
Click to expand...
 
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SAborn

Senior Member
Stan,

I have several friends who have been involved in the development of this chip software with protocol input, and its a great free package.
It would have been great if they had used the command names the same as Picaxe, but i guess that was getting too close to coping the present chip.

Its something i had tried to hint to Rev-ed some time back, to produce a "Big Boys" chip, to add to the kiddie chip range we all use and love for most simple projects, but there comes a time we want speed and power, with ease of programming language, to fit our project.

Yes you need to buy a "pickit 3" programmer board to interface with the micromite chip, but its a one off cost like the over priced USB to serial cables Rev-ed sells.

For a long time we have excepted working with snail speeds and the Micromite offers bullet speeds with basically a similar code language to picaxe.

The Micromite was developed by the same person who created the Maximite, which is a micro computer, compared to a micro chip, both are free to download, just the maximite uses a SMD 32 bit processor, and best purchased as a pre made board.

I see quite a few past picaxe forum members have crossed over to the maximite, and have found the great wonders of speed and power to develop projects, in ways they never thought they were able to achieve with Picaxe. (or never will)

Im sure Rev-ed are looking into it, but so far no comment.
I feel they have dropped the ball on developing a "Big boys chip" to suit the advanced user.

Im a loyal picaxe user for simple projects, but the advantage of speed and power of processing data without interger limits is very appealing for future projects.
 
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MFB

Senior Member
SAborn, although you say that Rev-ed may have 'dropped the ball' they still have an opportunity to apply their considerable IDE/simulator experience to the PIC32. I think that one of the limitations of the Micromite is the rather dated approach of using an on-chip editor with a PC terminal emulator. If your going to connect it to a PC, why not run a full IDE/simulator like the PICAXE?

The Maximite and Micromite are great products (and heaps better than some over-hyped alternatives) for the more advanced educational market, and we can therefore expect 3rd party developers to produce PC based IDE packages.
 
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Goeytex

Senior Member
I would think that Rev-Ed would currently be developing new products for the future and that this would include a 32 Bit PIC. Of course I could be quite wrong and Rev Ed could be happy sticking to 8-Bit micros and just adding bells & whistles to the IDE. In any case I imagine there will continue to be silence from Rev Ed until new products are almost ready, if only to prevent us "kids" from constantly asking: "Are we there yet?"
 
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SAborn

Senior Member
SAborn, although you say that Rev-ed may have 'dropped the ball' they still have an opportunity to apply their considerable IDE/simulator experience to the PIC32. I think that one of the limitations of the Micromite is the rather dated approach of using an on-chip editor with a PC terminal emulator. If your going to connect it to a PC, why not run a full IDE/simulator like the PICAXE?
Click to expand...
Well one can only hope Rev-ed sees these posts and picks up the game to fill the gap.

As for using a full IDE/simulator like picaxe, well that is a trade off to speed and power of the chip, a bit like using a 18x compared to 16F88 pic chip, one is a snail and the other a bullet, but both using the same pic chip.

Although i rather the 18x for simple projects for the programming simplicity.
 
Hemi345

Hemi345

Senior Member
Goeytex said:
I would think that Rev-Ed would currently be developing new products for the future and that this would include a 32 Bit PIC. Of course I could be quite wrong and Rev Ed could be happy sticking to 8-Bit micros and just adding bells & whistles to the IDE.
Click to expand...
Since the PICAXE line seems to be targeted mainly toward education, I wonder if RevEd have no interest in the 32bit PIC because maybe they fear most students would skip over learning the basics of integer math, bit shifting, etc by jumping straight into the big-boy chip if they were to release one. I for one, would be very interested in the big boy chip because I want to skip learning the integer math, bit shifting, etc. Hehe, just kidding. But it would make my current altimeter project a lot easier...

Are the 32bit PICs available in a breadboard-friendly package? That might have something to do with it as well.
 
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manuka

Senior Member
Are the 32bit PICs available in a breadboard-friendly package?
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They most certainly are - check the Micromite's "skinny DIP" 28 pin PIC32MX150F128B below. You could maybe even mount it on a 20x10 PCB finger & house in a partially gutted 3 or 4 x AA switched battery box too!
 

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MFB

Senior Member
I think the availability of a low cost DIP version of the Micromite will really help its acceptance for embedded prototyping, and for those without a PIC programmer there is a pre-loaded option for a bit more money. The limitation of the Maximite was that it was only available in single-board computer or plug-in module formats.
 
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steliosm

Senior Member
To be honest I do like the fact that the Micromite looks like a single chip computer from the 80s. You have a higher level of interaction with the chip by using it's integrated editor to edit, list and run your program. You don't just flash it with your firmware and plug it on your board. You have the option to either use it to learn how to program in MM Basic (text mode only) or use it to program the chip to stuff with LEDs, motors, etc.

I got a 'educational' RaspberryPi and I didn't like it. I sure will be getting one of those Micromites to test and try to have fun with it.
 
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MFB

Senior Member
Are you referring to the Intel 8052-BASIC? Lots of non-specialist programmers managed to do some interesting embedded projects with this 'single chip computer'. All you needed was a dumb terminal to use its on-board 8K Basic. Jan Axelson published a really good book about using the 8052-BASIC in the early 90's. Pity that the chip was mega expensive in its day.
 
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steliosm

Senior Member
No, I was actually referring to the various Amstrad 664/6128, SprectrumZX, etc. home computers that came along having a BASIC interpreter pre-installed in them. Micromite looks like it able to emulate this functionality in a single chip. I still believe BASIC is a nice way to introduce children to computer programming. I still use Basic (Liberty Basic) in some projects.

Never heard of that chip before (8052 Basic), but it does look very interesting. You can get the book in PDF for free now: http://janaxelson.com/files/microcontroller_idea_book.pdf :)
 
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MFB

Senior Member
I have an original copy of the above 8052 Basic book and it runs to 277 pages. It must be a reflection of increasing microcontroller complexity that the contemporary free ebook
http://www.circuitgizmos.com/files/begmax.pdf needs 550 pages! However, agree with you that Basic is still the best language for introducing all ages to programming.
 
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Goeytex

Senior Member
How can the Micromite provide "bullet speed" when it uses interpreted Basic? Bullet speed compared to what ?

I have seen no speed specs, other than the rather meaningless statement below from http://geoffg.net/micromite.html which states:

"Typically it will execute a program at 23,000 lines per second. "

This translates to approximately 43 microseconds per "line". But who knows what that really means as a "line" can contain many processor instructions? It seems to me that it may not be any faster than a Picaxe X2 operating at 64Mhz.

What would be meaningful is the time it takes to execute specific commands so that it can be fairly and relevantly compared to other platforms.

Something like the below, and then comparig the relative frequency(s) might give a seat-of-the-pants comparison.

do
high pin
low pin
loop

The question then might be, why would the Micromite be preferred over high range 8-Bit PIC or 32Bit ARM processor programed with compiled Basic or even a PIC8 /32 with compiled C?
 
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Goeytex

Senior Member
I found one test where a sequential "high pin / low pin" test on the MicroMite @ 40Mhz gives a pulse of 64 us. (~52us @48MHz ?)

Compare that to:

Picaxe 14M2 @ 32Mhz = 52us
Picaxe 20X2 @ 32Mhz = 70us
Picaxe 20X2 @ 64Mhz = 35us

While the Micromite certainly has some very nice features, blazing speed does not seem to be one of them (As would be expected with any Interpreted BASIC.)

I realize that this is not a comprehensive test and that more testing would need to be done for a completely fair speed comparison, but I think that "bullet speed" in regards to the Micromite and "snail speed" in regards to Picaxe may not be fair or accurate.
 
Buzby

Buzby

Senior Member
SAborn said:
... Im sure Rev-ed are looking into it, but so far no comment.
I feel they have dropped the ball on developing a "Big boys chip" to suit the advanced user. ...
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I'm not so sure that a "Big boys chip" is just for advanced users.

There are plenty of young enthusiasts who could make great use of a PICAXE which had floating point and real strings.
As it is they are moving to things beginning with 'A'. I just wish that was 'A bigger PICAXE'.

The inordinate length of time it took for PE6 to appear was, I hoped, because Rev-Ed was going to announce the X3 at the same time.
( There still might be an X3 on the horizon, but there are no clues in the obfusticated executables of PE6 ! )

After a long affinity to PICAXE, I'm jumping ship for my next project. It's not a super computer or a rocket guidance system, but it does have lots of keyboard input, strings, and tables of data. I could have done these easily back in the day on a ZX81 or similar, but to do it on a PICAXE today requires too much faffing.

But don't worry, to quote Arnie, "I'll be back."

Cheers,

Buzby
 
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MFB

Senior Member
Totally agree about even beginners benefiting from advanced features. The 'best' microcontroller is the one that gets the job done cheaply with the minimum of effort. Looking at the programming examples for the Micromite I was amazed at how quickly you start actually working on the main task, as opposed to just setting stuff up (like a C++ programme). Just as easy to get started on as a PICAXE but with FPM, and in the case of the Maximite, graphics and SD card support.
 
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BeanieBots

Moderator
But where do we draw the line?
All these features are very nice but if you want FPM, graphics, SD support etc. why not throw in a Keyboard, mouse and monitor and get a Raspberry Pi?
In my opinion, it is the lack of luxuries that makes students appreciate what is required and how not to take things for granted.
 
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MFB

Senior Member
I did add "in the case of the Maximite" just to illustrate that there was an upward path from the basic Micromite if required. Although the luxuries offered by the Maximite single board computer may indeed increase the level of complexity that a new student has to get to grips with, at least it uses an embedded Basic (is a system running a multi-tasking operating system and object oriented language really the best educational entry point?).
 
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MFB

Senior Member
Oh No, I am getting all my Maxis mixed up!! The Micromite is the basic microcontroller chip and the Maximite is the single board computer with graphics ext. Sorry about that.
 
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MPep

Senior Member
My only question is....when is the NanoMite due out? ;) 8 pin, 32 bit, 100 MHz (minimum) ???????
 
techElder

techElder

Well-known member
Oh, I just thought of something. Since programming is done with a basic terminal, aren't all of the program comments etc. also stored on the Micromite also? I must be missing something and not doing enough research.
 
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MFB

Senior Member
That must be the case if a dumb terminal is expected. I would have thought this limits the on-board editor. Maybe that's why there is an optional PC based editor that offers far more features. There is a link to this free software on the Maximite home page.
 
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inglewoodpete

Senior Member
Goeytex said:
"Typically it will execute a program at 23,000 lines per second. "

This translates to approximately 43 microseconds per "line". But who knows what that really means as a "line" can contain many processor instructions? It seems to me that it may not be any faster than a Picaxe X2 operating at 64Mhz.
Click to expand...
From my experience with programming bare PICs in C, the area you get the most speed gain is in the "internal work" where number crunching occurs. Division, multiplication and 16+ bit addition and subtraction are streets ahead in the 32-bit chip. Division in an 8-bit chip can take several milliseconds at 64MHz (PIC18F25K22 == 28X2).

I haven't tried the ---mite series of chip. For nearly all of my projects, the PICAXE is fast enough for the job and much quicker for me to develop on. Where I needed out-and-out speed, I used complied C in PIC32s or PIC18Fs.
 
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John West

Senior Member
MFB said:
Oh No, I am getting all my Maxis mixed up!! The Micromite is the basic microcontroller chip and the Maximite is the single board computer with graphics ext. Sorry about that.
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Oops! I've been trying to program my Marmite!
 
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