Having PCB boards made..?

[Craftybytes]

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OK - this topic may be done to death already..

Am located in Australia - so when designing my project PCB's - I elected to use the 'free' ExpressPCB software to lay out my boards..

I could have also used the EAGLE PCB package to do it - but didn't - too much of learning curve..

Also have an old copy of PROTEL AUTOTRAX PCB package (works great) - but cannot do any printouts of the board layers (no 'printer drivers' available for CANON Inkjet printer) - so can't proof my PCB's..

QUESTION: have any "Aussie" picaxe users used the "ExpressPCB" service to get their boards (proto or production) manufactured..?

Or is there any more suitable 'local' PCB board house worth considering..?

One problem I have with the "ExpressPCB" package is that there be no way to 'convert' the pcb files produced across to Gerber RX-274X files..!!!

TIA..

crafty.
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[BrendanP]

I use PCB Fast in Frankston, Victoria. I haven't had any problems with them. They made a mistake once with the layer info top/bottom layers reversed, they made me more boards at their cost when I pointed it out to them.

I just had a hundred sets of three boards made by them in black, they did a good job.

I use Circuit Wizard for pcb design. I have had some problems with it in the past re. files not being able to be opened, could be my 'puta not the program.

Rev Ed recommends another pcb design program, check with them

If you need a laser cutter use this guy in Oregon, BC Laser Works. He's a back yarder but does a great job and is a good bloke and must be the cheapest in the world, takes paypal. He cut me very small plastic parts, I sent him the pcb which I needed mounts for and said make this to do this , he measured it all up and cut them a hundred stes out out it cost about $80 AU. Top bloke.

Make sure you get through hole plated pcb's.

 

[Dippy]

Why don't you phone up some manufacturers and ask them about Formats??

One manuf I looked at will accept Gerber 274 , Extended Gerber 274X, Eagle, ODB++ and DPF.

The manufacturer I use will accept Gerber 274 , Extended Gerber 274X, EasyPC and Tsien Boardmaker files (which used to be THE CAD for PCBs).

PS. Don't forget PTH is for D/S boards really. I would add; don't forget Ident and solder resist but really is the default anyway unless you're being really tight.

 

[BrendanP]

Well Dippy you raise an interesting point there which I had meant to query the forum on.

I took one of my loaded production boards to see my Dad, hes got prostate cancer, only a few month to live so I see him as much as I can. Any, he was looking at the boards and some of my soldering and pointed out a error I had made. He said its important that the solder passes right through the hole and produces a filet around the leg of the component on both sides. I hadn't been applying enough heat to do so as I was concerned about excess heat damaging the part.

My dad was a engineer at IBM and GE and a ham. He worked at weapons research here in South Australia, we moved to the US and Saudi Arabia with IBM. He built and flew his own ultralight aircraft, was a officer in the signal corp in the Au army in Vietnam so I kind of listen to what he tells me. In any case I wasn't about to open my cake hole and disagree with what he was telling me. There comes a time to just shut up and show respect.

He said a joint with out the fillet on both sides would be rejected. Now you can't get the fillet on both sides (I dont think) without though hole plating.

But then SMD parts have no such support, maybe be mechnically lighter they don't need the physical support so much.??

Can anyone shed any further light on this?

 

[mikie_121]

Eagle light and PCBcart

I use Eagle Light (free download). The free program will make a board up to 100mm by 80mm and a maximum of two signal layers. That's fine for me.

I then use PCB cart to make my boards. http://www.pcbcart.com/
they can give you a free quote online and are the best price I have found so far.

Mike

 

[Dippy]

Brendan, very sorry about your Dad. Heed his considerable experience.

Remember a double/sided board will have a pad on both sides with pth. You normally make the holes a tad* oversize for the leg diam. So when you apply heat and solder the capillary action will take the solder through and produce your solder joint. I mentioned this 'rivetting' effect elsewhere. Electrically and physically better.
If you don't get this capillary action the either A) As you suggest, not enough heat or solder, or B) Your leg is too tight fit in hole, make holes bigger.

(This is also why they can be a sod to remove components intact if you don't have the right gear).

Obv a single sided board will only have a pad on one side. It is possible to have pth on single sided board but it's not common. Most boards are d/sided anyway so thats not an issue.

Some cheapo Far Eastern stuff still uses tat s/s brown board with resistors sitting upright. Yuk!

SMD, as you say they tend to be lighter so not much intertia and a relatively large pad area. You can also get smd adhesives. Thick conformal coatings can improve mechanical aspect. Not sure what special precautions people like NASA have but it's not rocket science (haha) to ruggedise any board. Maybe they still demand through-hole components for the heavier stuff. I'm not going to guess or pretend to know and I'll leave others to Google.

* 'tad' = a bit more oversize than you would normally. E.G a small resistor leg may be 0.6-0.65mm so you'd place the part hole as 0.75-0.8mm.

 

[hax]

I second using PCBCart.com

They will take eagle, gerber or autotrax.

You can print autotrax files quite easily.

If you downloaded autotrax from a zip file from the altium website, you will have also downloaded pcbtodxf.exe which changes the .pcb file to a dxf file.

The dxf file can be viewed and printed from many windows based programs.

As for the type of software to use, I would only stick with the biggest names out there. That way when the little guys go out of business, you wont have to learn a new software package.

Also when you stick with the biggest, you have the option of more board houses. Use Eagle.

 

[BrendanP]

Thanks Dippy for the good explanation. Ive learnt a lot on this forum!

I saw SMD part adhesive on the Loctite site the other night.

Interesting you mention NASA Dippy, my father said they'd fail boards for having excess solder, more weight to launch.

The old man worked on the Rapier missile at Woomera for IBM when they introduced it into Australia in the 70's. He had this cool model stainless model missile they made for him when he left there as a desk ornamament. One of the cleaners stole it off his desk in Saudi a few years latter when we were there. My dad wanted to call the Saudia cops at ARAMCO. ARAMCO managment begged him not to as there would be hell to pay, Saudi police have some unorthdox interrogation techniques..... Just one of the stories we've been talking about lately.

Me being involved in picaxe has bought my father and I closer, the help I have recieved on thsi forum has been critical in keeping me going with it.

 

[westaust55]

Crafty,

eons ago I used Jemal Products in Perth who did a good job for me and other hobby types. I see they are still in the business. They would make a small batch of boards even 1 to 3 as prototypes for a small fixed fee. No idea if they still offer that service. http://www.vianet.net.au/~jemal/jemal/


here are a couple of possibilities for you to look into - I know nothing about them personally. Startronics do make large control power supplies for industry which are well thought of.

Startronics Head Office (Sydney)
Unit 47 Slough Business Estate
Slough Avenue, Silverwater, NSW 2128
http://www.startronics.com.au/quality_testing.html


Entech Electronics
37 Belford Ave,
Devon Park, SA 5008
http://www.entechelectronics.com.au/modules/index.php

 

[moxhamj]

I have been sending off one order every few weeks http://www.instructables.com/id/Professional-PCBs-almost-cheaper-than-making-them-/

Just designed a board tonight from scratch to sending it off in 3 hours. Eagle has a steep learning curve but it becomes second nature quite quickly. I'm using the $125 version which is twice the size of the free download.

Autotrax is still sitting on my PC somewhere and I have used it before, but the huge library (including picaxe) and rapid autorouting in Eagle makes it my choice.

 

[andrew_qld]

I also use Eagle & PCB cart.
It only took me a few nights playing around with eagle to get the hang of it (there are plenty of how to's on line) and eventually my employer paid for the full version after they saw what i was doing. PCB Cart was cheap, emailed me at every step, made the CNC (gerber) drill files for me, and were good quality. I tried a second chinese manufacturer but there were a few errors and broken tracks in two boards.

 

[steska]

I'm using the $125 version which is twice the size of the free download.

Sorry for highjacking, had an old full version of EAGLE that I inherited long ago but have changed to the latest free version and found it rather limiting.

Did you get you non-profit $125 v. from N.Z. or USA, there’s no dealer in AUS.

 

[moxhamj]

I got it from the US. Email them and you will get a personal reply within 24 hours.

 

[Craftybytes]

Hey guys - thanks..

Much appreciated for the 'local' links - have heard of PCBCart from other sources - maybe will give them a try..

As to pcb software - well still have Eagle loaded to my machine - so maybe I'll give it another play with..

Currently I'm using Protel Autotrax - and also have a demo version of "Protel for Windows" (AdvancedPCB & AdvancedSCH) - and found that can use these to do a proper printout of the Autotrax files - now I can do a 'proof' check BEFORE committing to a pcb house..

Also found that the 'PfW' package can also do the conversion to Gerber of the Autotrax files as well - so things be lookin' up..

Anyway - much thanks all around..

crafty.
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[Dippy]

A quicky note on CADs

Well, I've just had a quick go with Eagle 5.2.0 Light.
Not bad. Requires a bit more than an hour to learn to drive, hardly surprising.
These things just take getting used to.

It's quite similar to Easy-PC. Doesn't appear to be as sophisticated as Easy-PC, but I've only had a quicky.
I haven't got as far as finding annoying habits, though I find the terminology and abbreviations annoying, but that's just a 'learning' thing.

You seem to get a lot more goodies with Easy-PC (e.g. excellent design calculator, cross-probing, importing Gerbers, importing bmps, real time DRC) and which has a lot more control on right-click functions. Though, that by default, can make it harder to learn. Visual aspect in Artwork mode is similar to Eagle i.e. a bit clunky and not a patch on Seetrax.

I mainly use Seetrax RangerXL. A little bit more quaint, but rock solid and visually superior in artwork mode with a very good artwork preview mode for inspecting. One thing I very much like about Ranger is the support from the Company. No need to post a question on the PICAXE Forum... just phone Seetrax. (Applies really to UK users unless you like a huge phone bill).

I've been trying their new XL Designer Demo. Harder to drive, still in development, still quaint and still doesn't pan as slickly as the others, and still the standard schematic library components are bit clunky albeit easy to edit. But using and cross referencing job files is very good. Nicer on the eyes too.
And with XL Designer and EasyPC you can have more than one job up at a time - useful when cribbing from old circuits.

Both Seetrax and EasyPC have been going for donkey's and each still have a few things which annoy. It would be great to take the best from each.

And I couldn't see in Eagle how you can Flip components onto reverse side of board. I couldn't find anything in 'Help' but it may be a terminology issue.

None of the bundled Autorouters are super-dooper but can produce some excellent results. Seetrax and Ranger allow easy incorporation of Big Boy (££$$) Autorouters (e.g. Spectra , Electra , Easy Prorouter) which are blooming excellent. I couldn't see the option on Eagle. I may have missed it and it gets no mention in 'Help'.
It's difficult to really compare autorouters without a vast amount of spare time. Obv all supplied 'Example' circuits will Autoroute 100%...
If you've never tried an expensive Autorouter don't knock 'em, though I appreciate most people will be doing simple circuits and probably prefer manual routing (I do too for small stuff).

I couldn't get on with Vutrax at all, which appears to try and emulate (visually) Tsien Boardmaker.

I honestly don't know which I would choose from Easy-PC, Eagle and Ranger if I were starting afresh. Certainly not Vutrax, sorry Vutrax.
I think a Professional designer would require access to High Q Autorouters. For me, of the CADs I've seen, it's a toss-up between EasyPC and Seetrax - but they ain't free.

I think Eagle good for people on a budget, but wouldn't be my choice. I know nothing about Customer support from Eagle either, which, is important during the early stages. (Just my opinion btw!!)

Tsien BoardMaker... the Guvnor. Some features are blooming excellent.... but hugely overpriced and unacceptable price structure for home user.
But whichever you choose then stick to it.
Once you've got used to whichever-CAD-you-have-chosen you will find the others a pain.
P.S. This is an opinion and not a review.

 

[andrew_qld]

Flipping in eagle

And I couldn't see in Eagle how you can Flip components onto reverse side of board. I couldn't find anything in 'Help' but it may be a terminology issue

You press the "Mirror" button in the board editor. Just so you know!

Andrew

 

[Dippy]

Cheers Andrew...the learning curve again. Not as intuitive as 'Flip' though.
Like all things, it's what you get used to. Anyway, Eagle is no doubt very good, but doesn't wow me. I'll stick to the devil I know.

 

[stocky]

I use OurPCB as well - as recommended by the Doc!
Previously I used IMP - good but $$$

I use the old DOS Autrotrax and "print to file" with Traxplot - gives a nice scale image with Irfanview

Learning Earle - have laid out a few boards but nothing sent to production yet - they have all been Autotrax

 

[Michael 2727]

You can use GhostView to open Autotrax post-script files and convert them
to .PDF files. A fiddly process but it's easy to take a .PDF file and a transparent A4
sheet to a friend or business with a Laser Printer if you want to try DIY etching.

AirBorn Electronics-
http://www.zeta.org.au/~stevenm/layout/pcbtut.html
has a tutorial they use DOS Autotrax/Easytrax, there are other links to Autotrax
related drivers and related sruff.

 

[Craftybytes]

Hi guys,

Still having a play with "PfW" - managed to get the 'Gerber' files printed OK - and also got my 'proof' prints done - BIG HELP..

Most of the types of PCB's that I currently layout are generally 'double sided / plated thru" - and for most of my projects - 60-80mm (W) x 100-150mm (L) - so no biggies at the mo..

The "free" Eagle can handle most of the smaller ones - but balks at anything over 100mm long - so I just stick with my old trusty copy of 'Protel AUTOTRAX' - and 'manual' layout everything to my liking - works every time..

My current project has 2 x DS/PT PCB's (one plugs into the 2nd) :-

a) 1x 'Controller/datalogger' board with 48 components (58mm (W) x 92mm (L)) - Picaxe 28X1 based..

b) 1x 'I/O & Relay board' with 40 components (68mm (W) x 102mm (L)) - this contains 2x 5A power relays & driver circuits - PLUS - 3x power connectors and a small 'switched' DC control & NiMH battery backup circuit..

So don't need too elaborate circuitry for my pcb layouts..

Am yet to decide on a pcb house for making them..

Much appreciated for all comments..

crafty.
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