ground pressure sensor 4 08m backyard alarm

yamato96

New Member
The idea is to use several elements in a parallel circuit dispersed in the backyard and use a 18x to detect someone as stepd on them.

thinking on use as digital input by making a simple transistor circuit amplifing the voltage produced on piezo pressure.

It will be solar powered

apreciate links/other post's and hint's.
 

KMoffett

Senior Member
Hooter,

That sounded like great transducer until I checked the price...$74 for 3 meters at Digikey...>$12,000 for 1 K. ;) That was a quick Google check. Any cheap sources?

Ken

A little cheaper at:

http://beta.octopart.com/Measurement_Specialties__0-1005646-1__0.pdf

But, still pretty high. Though it looks like ordinary non-piezo cable can be used to connect the sections of the piezo cable together and to the control box.
 
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Dippy

Moderator
I've used that cable from Rapid and you have to squash it pretty hard and gain it up a lot to get a good S/N.
I reckon if you buried it an inch or two underground then any fatso who trod near it would have their 'weight' dispersed a lot.
I'm not saying it won't work and it is darned expensive.

Perhaps home-made (very waterproof) pads with one of those round piezo transducer cunningly fixed.

Does it HAVE to be a buried sensor? If so, how deep? Is it under soil or gravel or lawn or what? How big an area? How spaced do you want your sensors? How much do you want to spend?
 

hax

New Member
There are probably better ways to do this. One that comes to mind is a rubber tube that is closed off on one end, then use a pressure transducer on the other end to sense a person stepping on it.

Or use a laser and set up a large grid of mirrors. Then sense a break in the beam.
 

gengis

New Member
geophones

It is beyond easy to build what you want for next to nothing if you have a well stocked junk box.

The common type used in industry and the military uses a magnet suspended in a coil with a couple of springs to keep it centered. A few thousand turns of magnet wire spun onto a bobbin with an electric drill, and a small rare earth magnet is all it is.

http://www.tenrats.org/geo.shtml explanation on how to

http://www.earthsci.unimelb.edu.au/ES304/MODULES/SEIS/NOTES/geophone.html ditto

http://www.discovercircuits.com/S/s-seismic.htm basic experimenter's DIY with signal massaging circuit to give a digital output

http://www.bgmicro.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=10783 kit for $20

BG Micro has them from time to time for $20 in kit form - they include the sensor and a circuit board amplifier and 10 LED display. I don't see the kit in the current catalog so they might be out at the moment. P/N: KIT1019 but they may still have the documentation on the kit in their documents section.
 

gengis

New Member
With some detectors and measuring the time delay between signals it should be possible to locate the source of the disturbance. That sounds like a fun project.
 

yamato96

New Member
it must use piezo speakers to keep costs low

Ever seen the midi drum controller 4 arduino on the web - makezine i think.
thinking using the same aproach!
Any hint about possible circuit/ best transistor?
 

Dippy

Moderator
Are you talking about those thin round transducers? They look like a metal disk with two wires hanging off. You usually stick them to something.

If so, the signal coming off depends hugely on how much deflection they get. Varying from not enough to too much.

Have you any plans on how your are going to mount them and then postition them?

How deep? How big an area of backyard do you want to cover? Can you give us any information at all or do we just guess?
 

gengis

New Member
your project

I put a driveway sensor down in the ground eons ago and my first choice was a piezo disc. My first problem was protecting the disc from the elements, while allowing the vibrations to get through. The piezo disc has a great high frequency response and lousy low freq response but a lot of voltage output. So to make it bullet proof you have to protect it with something and that invariably lowers the resonant frequency and at the same time cuts the output.

If you go that route - "Plasti-Dip" tool coating works best - minimum extra mass added to the transducer, minimum fuss. Mineral oil is great too, but a pain to contain - but keeps the high frequency response there. Paraffin wax is pretty good but cuts the highs - but is quick and easy and reversible. Epoxy is bullet proof, but kills the output (but I cast mine into a block and a coating might be better).

Something like latex mold material might be the best of all choices, but I didn't have any back then.

The "target" foot falls or vehicles invariably produces a lot of low frequency vibration in the ground and not a lot of high frequency - it is the nature of the medium, it just transmits low frequency much better than high. So the piezo isn't the ideal sensor - easier and cheaper to match the signal you're trying to capture with a single sensor. than resort to lots of sensors with very limited range.

One thing I did find with the piezo devices was "critters": hibernating snakes, "ground bees" in summer, and moles or voles foraging through the leaves would trigger false alarms.

If you are doing sensor research I'd like to hear your experiences.

I think a central geophone and three or four outlying sensors could "watch" more than an acre of land with no problem - but what kind of range were you looking for? Pretty sure a rabbit couldn't get through.

I built my own geophone(s) with a bobbin from a cup core transformer, and a small cylindrical magnet. Two springs I wound from some SS fishing leader suspended the magnet, and I put it in a small jar and sealed the leads with some hot melt glue. It worked and never had a problem.

Before you jump onto the piezo solution . . . look at others. It only takes a few minutes to spin wire on a bobbin and minimal electronics to get a good (low frequency) signal output. If one sensor can replace many, and do a better job . . . I was getting 500 mv of signal with someone walking over the transducer, and 30 mv peaks at 100 feet away. Deeper sensor and better range - but at lower output.
 

yamato96

New Member
We are going in to the right direction! Thank u all 4 the great input!

My idea is no to sense low or high freq. vibration but to sense a foot steping directly in to the piezo.
All i want is to sense a bang/spike that amplified by a simple transistor circuit produce a logic/high signal to uC. Average 5 to 15 kg pressure maybe.

-The piezo elements will be placed in the ground in a grid pattern;
-No to be berried in the ground, just camuflaged by a thin layer of dirt/soil.
- Thinking in rapping them in two oposing layers of large 3M adesive tape, after all I want it cheap and that can last one year in mediterrain clima ["keep it real" :-]
-All piezo in parallel circuit to one input in the uC

Im a newbie in electronics with no background in electric/electronics - i dont if my idea is possible or i'm just wasting ur time. thanks again.
 

Dippy

Moderator
I had a similar arrangement as Flooby years ago. I had to attach the piezo transducer to something to lower the res F. But simply sticking a 20p disk in the ground covered in Gaffer Tape won't do a thing, unless a target steps directly on it. You'll need to make a mini seismometer in effect.

To reduce the Resonant frequency you esentially have to increase the mass of part of the disk. Eg stick a weight in the middle and attach the outer edge to a firm base. Sorry, not a good description.
You will need a lot more gain than a single transistor can give.
In fact if you use something like a TS94x op-amp you can get tons of Lower F gain and also reject HF noise due to the intrinsic properties of a micro-power op-amp ie. Low GBwidthP.
I suppose you could bandpass filter to help reject unwanteds.
 

yamato96

New Member
Dippy, that's what i want, to detect a direct step on the piezo.
Op-amp circuit? never used one, so starting tonight to google-it! thank's 4 hint.
 

Dippy

Moderator
Not bad Tom. No it wasn't, but appreciated nonetheless.
(I don't like any site with a Google toolbar/textbox as the irrelevances will distract you [me] from the task in hand :) )
 

Dippy

Moderator
Great links and the National Op-Amp example sheet should be DOWNLOADED by EVERYONE.

I found the one I was on about. I knew I'd used the word 'ephemeral' in the thread.
It's good but not as good as I remembered.
http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/index.htm "Electronics Club" - but doesn't seem to do Op-Amps. Ah well.

I just WISH these handy resources could be made as a PERMANENT Quick Link or Read-Only Thread.
Otherwise, they are a bit... well... er... ephemeral.
 

yamato96

New Member
found a similar piezo sensor on the web - www.monzy.org/urinecontrol/ - but the circuit image is to small. Can any good soul check it please and post impressions?
It looks like a op-amp circuit, im not sure, i can see MAX4xx too, but nothing else.
 
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