I knew i kept all those bits of old printers for a reason 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR2xQlWpDxo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR2xQlWpDxo
A picaxe project if ever i saw one :-)
- Thread starter stocky
- Start date
marcos.placona
Senior Member
Is it just me, or you guys also find this kind of stuff really hot?
Andrew Cowan
Senior Member
I can insert chips faster than that.
However, the vacuum suction is pure genius.
Andrew
However, the vacuum suction is pure genius.
Andrew
marcos.placona
Senior Member
Just didn't really understand how the vacuum suction works. I mean, how is it controlled?
marcos.placona
Senior Member
So maybe that's why the cowboy style song keeps playing. It's to "hide" the vacuum cleaner's noise
This has been discussed here before. The machine is almost identical in principle to the Data I/O machines used to program every single PICAXE chip. However the Data I/O machines take 4 tubes at a time and program between 200-300 parts an hour (depending on memory capacity)!
http://www.rev-ed.co.uk/docs/promaster3000.pdf
http://www.rev-ed.co.uk/docs/promaster3000.pdf
Mycroft2152
Senior Member
It looks like Rev-Ed decided not to splurge and buy the "automatic labeling unit" as described in the phot.
Myc
Actually we do have the labelling units. However the labels are extremely troublesome to use, regularly jamming the machine. You also need specially manufactured labels which would add on average over 30% to the cost of every chip, they are very expensive.
If you want labels, we do sell sheets of them separately. This is a much cheaper method for those few who actually want them
http://194.201.138.187/epages/Store.storefront/?ObjectPath=/Shops/Store.TechSupplies/Products/LabelMaster/SubProducts/LAB001
If you want labels, we do sell sheets of them separately. This is a much cheaper method for those few who actually want them
http://194.201.138.187/epages/Store.storefront/?ObjectPath=/Shops/Store.TechSupplies/Products/LabelMaster/SubProducts/LAB001
Andrew Cowan
Senior Member
Is administrator and technical the same person? Or are they different people?
Andrew
Andrew
slimplynth
Senior Member
please can i have mine with fried onions ... cool project in the video though.
... cool project in the video though.Rickharris
Senior Member
marcos.placona
Senior Member
C'mon guys this is seriously hotOoooo you REALY need to get out more
.Mycroft2152
Senior Member
I am sure that Dataio would be very interested in correcting the major
design flaws you have found with the Promaster 3000 and are discussiing here on this public forum.
Adding 30% to the price to a PICAXE chip ($1 US for each 08M and $2.70 US for each 40X) to have the Promaster 3000 automatically apply labels seems outrageous. At 700 chips per hour, thats $700 to $2100. I am sure many forum members would accpt a contract job that pays that well to stick labels on chips.
It must be time to put on the wellies, its getting deep.
Myc
Myc,
I don't know the answer, but here's food for thought:-
1. The Promaster 3000 is discontinued.... ever wondered why?
2. The "30% to the cost of every chip" is probably referring to 'production cost' and not retail cost.
3. There are quite a lot of Promaster 'issues' on their website support section including faulty label placement.
So, if the labels are pricey and the machine is unreliable then that must make Rev-Ed wonder if it is worth the hassle.
I'm sure if you can get someone to apply 700 labels per hour every hour without mistake for £10 per hour then Rev Ed may take them on. I'm only joking.
Therefore, the challenge; to make a reliable printer/labeller that can print and place 500 labels per hour AND provide on-site support within 2 hours. All at a reasonable per piece price. Then you can flog it to Rev-Ed and the rest of the world. Good luck.
I don't know the answer, but here's food for thought:-
1. The Promaster 3000 is discontinued.... ever wondered why?
2. The "30% to the cost of every chip" is probably referring to 'production cost' and not retail cost.
3. There are quite a lot of Promaster 'issues' on their website support section including faulty label placement.
So, if the labels are pricey and the machine is unreliable then that must make Rev-Ed wonder if it is worth the hassle.
I'm sure if you can get someone to apply 700 labels per hour every hour without mistake for £10 per hour then Rev Ed may take them on. I'm only joking.
Therefore, the challenge; to make a reliable printer/labeller that can print and place 500 labels per hour AND provide on-site support within 2 hours. All at a reasonable per piece price. Then you can flog it to Rev-Ed and the rest of the world. Good luck.
Mycroft2152
Senior Member
Dippy,
The Promaster 3000 is a 20 year old machine that was replaced a year later with the 4000. From the DATAIO website:
"The following products (PM3000) are no longer being manufactured. However, we will provide repairs and accessories on a best-effort basis for as long as we have available parts."
The handwriting is on the wall.
As a retired production manager, with almost 30 years of manufacturing experience, these type of problems fall into 2 catagories; poor maintenance on the machine, or an operator / department head that is more interested in "showing good numbers" and artifically inflating efficiency ratings.
Re: the 30% increase, Yes, that was carefully ambiguous. 30% on the cost of programmng is only a matter of a few pence at the most.
I find it very difficult to believe that Rev-Ed has only one unit, which would limit their chip programming to a max of 700 an hour.
If labelling was such as slow and expensive issue, then we would be buying generic grey cans from Mrs. Heinz and Mr. Heiniken.
Myc
Jolly good. All down to numbers innit.
You forgot the 3rd Category: Is the machine as good as the salesman said....
Right, enough entertaining musings from me. I'll leave you to it. I must label my 15,342 PCB pins now... c u later. Now where did I put my PM8000 Mk7?
You forgot the 3rd Category: Is the machine as good as the salesman said....
Right, enough entertaining musings from me. I'll leave you to it. I must label my 15,342 PCB pins now... c u later. Now where did I put my PM8000 Mk7?
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hippy
Ex-Staff (retired)
I find it very difficult to believe that Rev-Ed has only one unit, which would limit their chip programming to a max of 700 an hour.
700 per hour, 6 hours per day, 240 days per year = one million
They'd have to be shipping more than 5,000 units per day to require another machine.
700 per hour, 6 hours per day, 240 days per year = one million
They'd have to be shipping more than 5,000 units per day to require another machine.
Mycroft2152
Senior Member
Hippy,
Very op[timistic and a nice theory, but there have been shortages of specific chips, and no backup for when the PM3000 goes down. As mentioned earlier, the PM3000 is a 20 year old machine with spare parts only availible from what is in inventory.
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hippy
Ex-Staff (retired)
I perhaps misunderstood the point you were making. Having worked in manufacturing I've experienced the problems of production line failures first hand, done my share of manning the pumps when disaster strikes.
Even total failure of the PM3000 shouldn't bring Rev-Ed to its knees. There would hopefully be some buffer stock and with luck a replacement programmer could be bought in fairly quickly or chip programming out-sourced. A lot depends on how JIT Rev-Ed production is and quantities involved and I have no idea of that.
It could end up being a complete disaster but there are plenty of options available to avert that and I am quite sure that Rev-Ed have enough business experience to forsee and get themselves out of such situations, but the best plans in the world don't always guarantee success.
I wouldn't overly worry about Rev-Ed being 'critical path' reliant on a piece of clapped-out junk which it may be hard to find parts for with no backup - most companies I've known are just as vulnerable, often more so.
I also wouldn't necessarily take chip shortages as a definite sign that there have been production failures. Buffer stock can get depleted through unexpected sales surge and production cannot always keep up with demand. But I'm sure as a Production Manager you're also aware that those times, and genuine production stoppage, don't necessarily justify the purchase of better or more modern equipment.
Only Rev-Ed can tell us what the true situation is and I wouldn't expect them to other than quell speculation that they had problems.
Even total failure of the PM3000 shouldn't bring Rev-Ed to its knees. There would hopefully be some buffer stock and with luck a replacement programmer could be bought in fairly quickly or chip programming out-sourced. A lot depends on how JIT Rev-Ed production is and quantities involved and I have no idea of that.
It could end up being a complete disaster but there are plenty of options available to avert that and I am quite sure that Rev-Ed have enough business experience to forsee and get themselves out of such situations, but the best plans in the world don't always guarantee success.
I wouldn't overly worry about Rev-Ed being 'critical path' reliant on a piece of clapped-out junk which it may be hard to find parts for with no backup - most companies I've known are just as vulnerable, often more so.
I also wouldn't necessarily take chip shortages as a definite sign that there have been production failures. Buffer stock can get depleted through unexpected sales surge and production cannot always keep up with demand. But I'm sure as a Production Manager you're also aware that those times, and genuine production stoppage, don't necessarily justify the purchase of better or more modern equipment.
Only Rev-Ed can tell us what the true situation is and I wouldn't expect them to other than quell speculation that they had problems.
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Myc:"I am sure that Dataio would be very interested in correcting the major
design flaws you have found with the Promaster 3000 and are discussiing here on this public forum."
- I know that was a little tongue-in-cheek but if, as you say, it's 20 years old and with, as you also say "spare parts only availible from what is in inventory", then do you really think so?
Anyway, why worry about breakdowns if it doesn't get used ? (TIC).
Everything seems happy so can someone (politely) tell me the point of all this?
design flaws you have found with the Promaster 3000 and are discussiing here on this public forum."
- I know that was a little tongue-in-cheek but if, as you say, it's 20 years old and with, as you also say "spare parts only availible from what is in inventory", then do you really think so?
Anyway, why worry about breakdowns if it doesn't get used ? (TIC).
Everything seems happy so can someone (politely) tell me the point of all this?
There are very strange rumours going on here!
The cost estimates were based upon our approximation of cost of labels, ink, and machine offline time, which is by far the biggest of the three elements. There is no design flaw in the machines or maintainance issues, just the nature of tiny sticky labels - no matter what you do they will still stick where they shouldn't! They also introdouce a lot of dust which increase the maintainance overheads. It is our choice not to use labels to increase productivity, and that is our choice to make.
We have an operational fleet of 5 PM3000 (DIP devices) and 2 PM2500 (SOIC devices) doing most of the day to day PICAXE programming. We have an almost ever lasting supply of spares - it is often cheaper to buy old machines and extract the spares, and we have done this numerous times in the past. We could quite easily build another full machine from scratch from our spares box! We also manufacture our own programming contacts, the only disposable items on the machine. Our machines are nowhere near 20 years old, machines were manufactured new right up until the late 1990's and available new from stock later still. They were certainly not replaced by the 4000 after 1 year! In fact Data I/O do not make any kind of DIP capable machine any more, so we could not use a more modern machine for DIP parts even if we choose to.
At the end of the day if all our machines failed we would simply use one of the dozens of sub-contractors who can program chips, including Microchip themselves. However we try to keep manufacturing costs to a minimum, and programming ourselves saves the customer money on the cost of each and every PICAXE chip sold.
The cost estimates were based upon our approximation of cost of labels, ink, and machine offline time, which is by far the biggest of the three elements. There is no design flaw in the machines or maintainance issues, just the nature of tiny sticky labels - no matter what you do they will still stick where they shouldn't! They also introdouce a lot of dust which increase the maintainance overheads. It is our choice not to use labels to increase productivity, and that is our choice to make.
We have an operational fleet of 5 PM3000 (DIP devices) and 2 PM2500 (SOIC devices) doing most of the day to day PICAXE programming. We have an almost ever lasting supply of spares - it is often cheaper to buy old machines and extract the spares, and we have done this numerous times in the past. We could quite easily build another full machine from scratch from our spares box! We also manufacture our own programming contacts, the only disposable items on the machine. Our machines are nowhere near 20 years old, machines were manufactured new right up until the late 1990's and available new from stock later still. They were certainly not replaced by the 4000 after 1 year! In fact Data I/O do not make any kind of DIP capable machine any more, so we could not use a more modern machine for DIP parts even if we choose to.
At the end of the day if all our machines failed we would simply use one of the dozens of sub-contractors who can program chips, including Microchip themselves. However we try to keep manufacturing costs to a minimum, and programming ourselves saves the customer money on the cost of each and every PICAXE chip sold.
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hippy
Ex-Staff (retired)
If you build it with Mecanno, Lego, gaffer (duct) tape, shoot a video for U-Tube and stick it on Instructables you'll get the kudos of "Hot", "Cool", and "Cosmic". I recommend fading RGB LED's to make it look more impressive, and big hand-shaped bat to plonk labels on
Or commandeer the local Job Centre queue and put them to work with PICmicro programmers built from PICAXE's. With Job Trial that's three week's worth of labour at no charge
ROTFL !!!
By now, I should know better than to read one of your posts while I have a mouthful of coffee. There goes another keyboard!