Oscilloscope for £13.99?

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
Possibly. To use it you are going to have to put it on something ( strip-board, PCB ) and find all the other parts needed, another £10 if you buy the sellers kit, plus some scope probes if you want them.

It's also not as capable or as usable as a 'real oscilloscope' but you get what you pay for. Bottom line is if it does the job you want it to at the price you wish to pay you've come out tops.
 

fernando_g

Senior Member
Amazing that the guts for a scope can now be integrated into a single chip!

having said that, the key to ALL scopes is its analog front end.

I've bought USB scopes in the past, with have little or no front-end analog processing, and have had issues with DC drift, overshoot, signal compression, extremely poor slew rate, unstable triggering, etc, etc, etc.

The old adage "you get what you pay for" still applies.
However, if may still be a good buy if you know its performance limitations... which from the provided information, it is not clear at all.
 

womai

Senior Member
Thanks for the plug, hippy! :)

As for the other scope kit under discussion, some can be deduced by looking at the picture and text on the website. One first thing, although the Ebay ad promises an "ebay helpdesk", I could not find any email address on the vendor's website. Not very professional. Probably only though Ebay?

Second, since it does not have any analog frontend (amplifier or attenuator) the input range is max. 0 to 5 V (this is what the webpage states as well). If that works for you, great. Since the power comes from USB and there is no interface chip, obviously your PC is at risk from any overvoltage.

I am pretty sure the sample rate of 800 kSamples/sec is limited to a single channel; already amazing if even that is achievable, since the microcontroller used (PIC18F2553) can only execute 10 million instructions per second max, so the guy managed to sample and store a sample in just 10 commands. I somewhat doubt that number - the ADC alone takes over 10 ADC clock cycles to convert the result and it can't even run close to full clock speed as far as I know. The only other PIC-only based design that I know of that is that fast uses a dsPIC which is a 16-bit device, can execute 3x faster (30 MIPS vs. 10 MIPS), and has a much better ADC.

Second, the 400 kHz bandwidth number is somewhat misleading - he does say "Nywquist bandwidth" so that is NOT the analog bandwidth, but simply half the sample rate. The ADCs of the 8-bit Microchip uC's normally have an analog bandwidth of around 50 kHz (although I have to admit I measured that on the 16F series, not 18F). The dsPIC's have up to 500 kHz. Where the guy gets the 3 MHz digital bandwidth number from I have no idea.

Software - the webpage states only Linux. Not sure there is anything for Windows.

With components (which the seller also offers) you are up to 26 BP, not such a good offer anymore IMHO.

Not saying nobody should try, but I'd get some more information from the vendor first.
 

moxhamj

New Member
That chip looks quite nifty.

I'll second all the comments above. The only concern I'd raise is scopes that use the PC soundcard. I tried to make do with one for a while but because they are designed for audio frequencies they give a lot of distortion. Feed in a 10khz square wave and you don't get a square wave - you get a 'capacitor charging and discharging' wave. I never really trusted the waveform over about 1khz with a soundcard scope. In the end I picked up a standard cheapie 10Mhz scope for $99 from Dick Smith and am very happy with that.

Is $AU99 about 1 pound at the moment?

But this chip looks clever. You might not necessarily buy it to save money, but you would learn a fair bit about electronics if you built a scope using the chip.
 
Last edited:

womai

Senior Member
Dr. A, the problem is, the design is not open source. So e.g. while you may build an analog frontend to go with it (anybody is welcome to re-use the frontend of my scope design, btw), you can't just extend the microcontroller firmware to control it. Very soon you are stuck with what you have.

I am currently working on a super-simple scope solution using a PIC16F88. It will only do equivalent time sampling for anything faster than maybe 2 msec/div, so no good for single shot measurements, but perfectly usable for repetitive signals (similar to a classic analog cathode-ray type scope); The whole design so far only uses 4 chips (including analog frontend), can do up to 400 kSample/sec equivalent sample rate, and analog bandwidth is limited to around 50 kHz (this is a limitation of the 16F88's built-in ADC). Intotal, good for signals up to 50 kHz. So an order below my existing scope design, but still much better than a soundcard based scope. For the future, maybe I can port this idea to a dsPIC which should give about 6x better performance. In any case I'll probably make it an open design again.

Wolfgang
 

moxhamj

New Member
Good point Wolfgang. I'd always go open source if possible. Your design sounds better and will be around for longer too. Plus it would come with support via this forum (?!).
 

rmeldo

Senior Member
Someone mentioned analog?

I might be able to buy one off my friend for £50. I think it is 50MHz.

what are people's thoughts?

Riccardo
 

Tom2000

Senior Member
I am pretty sure the sample rate of 800 kSamples/sec is limited to a single channel; already amazing if even that is achievable, since the microcontroller used (PIC18F2553) can only execute 10 million instructions per second max, so the guy managed to sample and store a sample in just 10 commands. I somewhat doubt that number - the ADC alone takes over 10 ADC clock cycles to convert the result and it can't even run close to full clock speed as far as I know. The only other PIC-only based design that I know of that is that fast uses a dsPIC which is a 16-bit device, can execute 3x faster (30 MIPS vs. 10 MIPS), and has a much better ADC.
I raised an eyebrow when I read that, too. I haven't worked with the -2553, but have done some DSP experimentation using the 18F2431, which has been supposedly optimized for high-speed streaming ADC sampling. At max CPU speed, that proc only does something like 250 ksps. I'll have to download the -2553 data sheet.

Thanks!

Tom
 

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
what are people's thoughts?

My personal thoughts are much the same as in my earlier reply. Only you can decide if it's a scope worth having, others may have different requirements or criteria and measure how any particular scope fits their own needs diferently than you would.

For anyone to make an assessment on how they felt about any particular scope themselves they'd really need more specific technical details about it.

Last weekend I was lucky enough to pick up a TiePieScope HS508 for less than the price of a pint of beer. It's not brilliant, a fore-runner of USB scopes so needs a parallel printer connection, isn't top-spec, the software's a little 'clunky', it wouldn't be my personal choice but an absolute bargain and does its job which suits me fine.
 

demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
i recently purchased this
http://www.hobbylab.us/

it's a nice cheap and simple usb scope so far i've only been using it for debugging spi signals and looking at sound waves,
here's some fun you can have, get a speaker an opamp and a microphone
move you speaker and mic around and you can see the different and multiple sound reflections
 

rmeldo

Senior Member
Perhaps I will narrow the question.

When does an analog oscilloscope become a bargain?

I realize it is still an open question. it is meant to be.

What I am trying to find out is people's opinion on what the trade off is between acquisition speed, accuracy, features, Vs the capability of DIGITAL scopes to record traces, and other functionality.

Ultimately I will have to make my own mind up. I am just not ready yet...


Riccardo
 

Tom2000

Senior Member
Perhaps I will narrow the question.

When does an analog oscilloscope become a bargain?

I realize it is still an open question. it is meant to be.

What I am trying to find out is people's opinion on what the trade off is between acquisition speed, accuracy, features, Vs the capability of DIGITAL scopes to record traces, and other functionality.

Ultimately I will have to make my own mind up. I am just not ready yet...


Riccardo
I have a traditional Tek scope that I bought on eBay years ago. Paraphrasing Charlton Heston, "they're going to have to pry that scope out of my cold, dead hands."

I bought one of the USB scopes (the Dynon ELAB-80), but I find myself using my Tek scope more than the Dynon. (Probably because the Tek scope is already set up and available, and I have to set up the Dynon each time I want to use it. It's more convenient to use the Tek. Silly reason, I know, but that's the size of my workbench.)

I'd say that, if you can only buy one instrument, go for a used analog scope, as long as it's a name brand, is affordable, and is high quality. I know I'd miss the Tek if I only had the Dynon.

However, this is only one man's opinion. I'm sure each one you ask will give you a different answer.

Good luck!

Tom
 

BeanieBots

Moderator
I pretty much go with what Tom2000 has said.
As far as "features" go, many are just gimmicks. Great fun to play with but once the novelty has worn off, it's extra money for something you won't use.
(unless you're looking in the RRP +£5k area, then the extras are worth it IF you need/use them)
Also, don't forget the purpose of a 'scope. It is NOT a voltmeter or datalogger. It is to "see" waveforms. To do almost any other task, get the correct equipment to do that task. Besides, do you really want your 'scope tied up data logging? Buy a cheap old USB DVM for that. Better still, make one with a PICAXE.

By far the most important "feature" is a good reliable and adjustable trigger.
If you have ever felt like throwing a PC through the window, the urge will be stronger with a 'scope that does not trigger properly.
MINIMUM: adjustable +/- slope, level & line.
 

womai

Senior Member
There are many, many, many possible performance parameters to look at when deciding for a scope, and also when deciding between an analog and a digital scope. BTW, virtually all higher-end scope today are digital sampling scopes because they can be MUCH more flexible than any analog scope, and with sufficient computing power they pretty much give a real-time display (once you are at 50 frames/sec or more, your eye won't be able to see any difference).

For a hobbyist of course price is a big factor, and that makes older, used analog scope look attractive again. It really depends on what type of signal you want to look at:

- remember that for a digital sampling oscilloscope (DSO), your sample rate should be about 10x the highest signal frequency of interest, unless the scope is doing a great job at interpolation (then the sample rate can be as little as 2.5x - 3x your analog bandwidth). So if you want to look at the Picaxe's 16 MHz oscillator, you really need around 160 - 200 MSamples/sec. Most cheap USB scopes offer only 50 - 100 MSamples, some even less, which is good to maybe 5 - 10 MHz. That's where even an older analog scope comes in handy - cheap ones typically have at least 10 MHz bandwidth, and it's quite easy to pick up a 60 MHz one for little money. That said, many DSOs have an equivalent time sampling mode which provides very high effective sample resolution for repetitive signals.

- on the other hand, analog scopes are a horrible choice for looking at isolated, rare events that require single-shot capture. In times past people made do with them by taking screenshot pictures with a camera with long exposure time, or with specialized scopes that had cathode ray tubes with long afterglow. But there isn't a good reason to do this nowadays. Much better to use a DSO for that.

- same thing, analog scopes aren't very convenient for displaying slower trends as well - once your trigger rate drops below about 10 events/sec the screen becomes very flickery until you see just a small dot moving slowly across the screen for slow timebase settings.

- another place where a DSO really shines is capturing the signal BEFORE the trigger. For analog scopes the trigger typically starts the sweep, so you cannot observe what happened before or shortly after the trigger instant. Digital sampling scopes can easily implement such a "pretrigger" option, while an analog scope needs a ton of hardware (delay lines) to do that. Very important if e.g. you want to trigger on a failure event and see what lead up to it.

- DSO's are much more user-friendly when you need to do measurements on your signals - frequency, period, levels, rise and fall times, etc. Most DSO software can do that for you automatically. On an analog scope you always need to measure or count grid intervals, then multiply that by hand with the timebase or sensitivity setting - slow, tedious and error prone.

- space requirements - an old cathode ray scope is large and heavy. A USB scope is typically very small. That can be an advantage if your lab space is limited to one half of your desk :)


Overall, for a person on a limited budget who wants to be quite flexible my recommendation would be to get a simple but decent USB based scope for most measurements - something like 50 to 100 MSamples/sec, with maybe 50 MHz analog bandwidth and an equivalent time sampling mode. In my experience, they are more user friendly than the rock-bottom low-end Tek or Agilent scopes (which usually lack sufficient computing power for fast screen refresh rates, and often have a pretty bad noise floor, while the USB based scopes have your high-power PC or laptop at their disposal for data processing). And then in addition look for a good used old 100 MHz analog scope if you really need to look at very fast signals. If you can spend some more - between $600 and $2000 - get a decent new or used Tek, Agilent or Lecroy DSO to cover all those needs in a single box.

Wolfgang
 
Last edited:
Top