What speed oscilloscope?

Neurascenic

New Member
Hey all,

I am looking to put a bid on a digital oscilloscope.
What would be a good speed for a hobbyist? Probably with a little room to grow...

Much obliged!

Chris Lund
 

slurp

Senior Member
> I am looking to put a bid on a digital oscilloscope.
> What would be a good speed for a hobbyist?
> Probably with a little room to grow...

Think about the speed of the things your working on KHz or MHz + a factor. The PC based digial don't seem to come close, vellaman seem to be poor resolution but there are some good standard scopes for low cost.

I picked up a good kenwood scope on ebay, couldn't fault it - been great for bug hunting in medium to high KHz sensor circuits and just does enough MHz for PICs :)

why digital? is there a need to record?

regards,
colin


 
 

andrewpro

New Member
How much are youw illing to spend? What do you plan to do with it? What kind of hobbiest are you? What are your interests, current skill level, experience, etc...

First and foremost it comes down to price. Second, ask yourself if you really do need a DSO. The problem with them is that they're A) Expensive, and B) relatively slow.

A digital O-scope also wont show analog signals as well as an analog scope will. An analog scope can show digital signals as well as a DSO, but most cannot record that information.

--Andy P
 

Neurascenic

New Member
Colin, Andy,

Well I guess I am showing how little knowledge I contain.

Simply I am a novice hobbyist. And no, I do not forsee any reason to record anything.

I was merely thinking of digital for, well no special reason.

The bulk of stuff I am going to be working on will be using the PICAXE MC. However, I do want to toy with a couple of others. Notably Parallaxe's Propeller and/ or the Make Controller. For the most part, these are both way too powerful for what I "need". However, I want to play with them any way.

So, I should go with an analog? What would be a reasonable price?

Thank you for your wisdom,

Chris Lund
 

andrewpro

New Member
If theres no need to record anyhitng, I would get an analog scope. Just my personal preference really...that and they cost heaps less than a DSO.

I would not go with anyhting less than 20mhz. Honestly, if I had ot do it again, I'd get a 60mhz+ scope.

Generally the rule of thumb that crops up alot is to make sure you have twice the bandwidth you'll need. Alot of times that a crock, though, as a good analog scope will still show waveforms well above it's bandwidth, but there are no guarantees it'll be accurate or measurable.

Stay away from PC based scopes. Also stay away from handheld scopes, and stuff like that. Scour ebay for a good name brand full sized benchtop scope.

As for price...that can vary hugely. I got my HP1222A 20mhz analog scope for ~$40 US shipped. That was a lucky find though. Generally, expect to pay $100 or thereabouts (appropriately scaled for your local exchange rate).

Beware of bargain basement deals, and definitely beware of rack mount or modular scopes. Quite often they are NOT complete and generally not even usable. Oh...try to get a scope that comes with probes! A good probe set can cost as much or more than an ebay scope!

Above all else...RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH! Dig as deep as humanly possible into anyhting you consider, and read and study as much as you can. There is a huge range of possibilities when it comes to oscilloscopes!

Good luck.

--Andy P
 

Dippy

Moderator
I nearly agree.
All I would say, is save up the extra 500 quid and buy a Tektronix.

You may have to stay in for a few weeks to save up but in terms of performance (and service) you won't regret it.
I can't fault mine. I have two. One is 7
years old (mono lcd) and good as new. Superb gear. I will happily buy another Tektronix when it eventually dies.
 

womai

Senior Member
Well, I may bit a bit spoiled, since I get to play with multi-GHz scopes and similar super-expensive equipment every day at work, but here's my take:

If you can afford it, go for a low-end digital sampling oscilloscope (the entry-level Tektronix ones are a good choice, but Yokogawa - www.yokogawa.com - may be cheaper for virtually the same performance). Yes they are more expensive than an analog scope.

The lowest bandwidth for these digital scopes is around 60 MHz, and anyway I would not go much lower than that (you can run the Picaxe's up to 16 MHz and if you want to see that (the clock) you better have a scope that has 2-3 times that bandwidth. Also some glitches can be very short and you won't see them on a low-bandwidth scope).

The reason for recommending a digital scope are that they are much more flexible. You can record single-shot events which is hard to do with an analog scope (normally they need a repetitive signal). You can use it as a slow-speed multi-channel data logger over a longer range if you choose a long time base - difficult to do in a meaningful way on an analog scope because the screen refresh rate has to be high. You can look at things that happened BEFORE the trigger - almost impossible on an analog scope, but VERY helpful for troubleshooting (to see the events that lead up to the failure). Even some of the entry-level scopes can have sophisticated trigger conditions (like "trigger only when channel 1 is high and channel 2 has a transition" or "trigger only on a pulse that's shorter than 1 us" - great to find glitches). Some of the digital scopes (e.g. newer Tektronix) can give you real-time Fourier-transform, so you can use them as a spectrum analyzer - great to pinpoint periodic effects, or to do audio work.

What got pointed out before, some people think that analog scopes give a better "feel" for the signal because (provided you have enough trigger events) the screen refresh rate is high so you see the signal changing in real time. Digital scopes are catching up, on high-end units the refresh rate is much faster than your eye, so their look and feel is like an analog scope, but low-end digital scopes are slower.

And yes, good probes are crucial - a good fast scope with crummy probes won't get you very far and is a waste of money. Used passive probes are frequent offerings on ebay and are often very inexpensive. Look out for passive probes that are rated a bit higher than your scope in terms of bandwidth. (active probes are more expensive and much more sensitive to mishandling, and they usually only work with certain scopes from the same manufacturer!)

Hope that helps with your decision.

Wolfgang


Edited by - womai on 13/06/2006 05:29:08
 

manuka

Senior Member
Beg to differ gents! It's the age of " To begin- take a PC", which nicely suits both professionals & tight budget newbies, especially given the volume of e-junk cluttering the globe!

I've been a scope user &gt;40 years (single/dual/hobby/prof/commercial/mil./storage/0$ - $$$$$)&amp; now highly recommend such PC based offerings as PICO's =&gt; www.picotech.com <A href='http://www.picotech.com' Target=_Blank>External Web Link</a>. Even these may be an overkill, since for years many newbies &amp; hobbiests have relished low BW (~20kHz) sound card based &quot;Winscope&quot; freebies such =&gt; www.zelscope.com/features.html <A href='http://www.zelscope.com/features.html ' Target=_Blank>External Web Link</a> &amp; =&gt; www.geocities.com/lptscope <A href='http://www.geocities.com/lptscope ' Target=_Blank>External Web Link</a> Sound card I/O has been a near revolution in many wireless data telecomms fields.

Aside from the blending of consumer TV/MP3/Camera/video/audio gear , PC controlled approaches abound in many other instrument fields, as data display,storage &amp; manipulation on a dedicated item may be much better handled via an attached (or even embedded) PC rather than reinventing the wheel.

Hence prof. comms. grade receivers can now be just a small black box instead of a rack system. See Icom's late '90s(&amp; thus serial) IC-PCR1000 <A href='http://www.icomamerica.com/products/receivers/pcr1000/ ' Target=_Blank>External Web Link</a>, or their recent US$700 &quot;DC to Light&quot; R-1500 USB version <A href='http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/widerxvr/1500.html' Target=_Blank>External Web Link</a>. Such specs. in a proprietary design would have cost &gt;&gt; x10 this price.


Edited by - stan. swan on 13/06/2006 06:13:34
 

womai

Senior Member
Hi Stan,

points taken, though I don't necessarily agree with all of it (but that's what this forum is for, to discuss different approaches and points of view, right?!). About two years ago I spent quite a while researching those soundcard based scope offerings (I wanted to use it at home as a simple scope for tinkering), but finally gave up. While the screenshots and descriptions all looked good on the web, the actual performance was just dismal for all of them (I went through about 10 different ones, all Freeware or demo); unstable triggering / unstable picture, poor sensitivity, questionable user interface were usual breaking points. Even when if would have worked well, 20 kHz sample rate is just barely enough to function as a logic analyzer (that tells you high/low) for the Picaxe - forget doing accurate timing or level measurements. And I tried those scope programs on three different computers (one fast desktop and two good laptops, all different manufacturers). Level accuracy versus. frequency of the sound cards is usually horrible, too (1dB is not much in terms of voulme difference, but means over 10% error in level - no self-respecting scope is even that bad. And run-of-the-mill sound cards fall of MUCH more than 3 dB even below 20 kHz).

But what's more important, feed in a few Volts too much and you can fry your whole computer (yes, one could get a cheap used laptop or desktop but for me that kills the &quot;zero overhead&quot; aspect of those scopes). And from my own experience I can tell that many sound cards are horribly sensitive to static electricity (sometimes I am brave and work without a grounded wriststrap when I am tinkering at home, and twice I killed a phone input or line ine on those cards that way).

Good scopes are more forgiving, especially with a good passive probe in front (which doesn't work well with sound card inputs because then the signal becomes too small).

As to PC based scopes (a little hardware box hooked up to serial port or USB), they are quite a bit better and I agree, you get storage function, Fourier transform and other goodies virtually for free (and it's super-easy to load/save/print waveforms). One frequent complaint is that the cheaper units often have only a single input channel, so you can't trigger on one signal and look at another. Which makes them virtually useless for most serious work. The higher-end pico scopes look pretty decent (I looked at them around the same time as the sound card scopes) but for a steep price. The lower end are almost a joke (in my opinion anyway!) given their poor bandwidth. (even a simple RS-232 based system could go to close to 100kHz). And I do think you need several MHz to make sense in the long run.

Finally, but that is of course personal taste, nothing can beat the intuitive feel of real knobs and pusbuttons when operating such an instrument. Fiddling with a mouse on &quot;virtual buttons&quot; just does not cut it - because it's much slower.

As I said in the beginning, but probably good to repeat, those are just my 2 cents! Like to hear other opinions, too!

Wolfgang


Edited by - womai on 13/06/2006 07:36:18
 

Michael 2727

Senior Member
I have used a couple of PC based Scopes and samplers
and basically I think they are crap !
(scuse the French)
The idea looks good on paper thats all as far
as I'm concerned.
I have an old (BWD 560)single 20MHZ scope its only
good for audio really but its better than nothing.
You can just see a 20MHZ signal barely,
so it's max useful range is around 1 to 2MHZ
if you want a good look at any signal.
If you need to get a good look at any signal
you should look for something at least 5 or
10 times the resolution of the input signal.
But more often than not the size of your
wallet will determine the max resolution.
 

Jeremy Leach

Senior Member
In my humble opinion - My Velleman entry-level handheld digital scope is by the standards you're talking about very low spec. BUT, you can get it for &#163;75 new in UK. and in terms of PICAXEs it's opened a whole new door to me, and made it all much more interesting - even with this modest offering. I think it all depends on what you want to do.

I'm quite happy to stay in the KHz ranges, although admittedly this might change in the future. This might be because I'm not a speed freak, rather an efficient system freak !
 

MartinM57

Moderator
I picked up a Tektronix 2213A dual channel 60Mhz analogue scope for &#163;105 on eBay (some on eBay.com right now, but none on ebay.co.uk).

Very pleased with it as an analogue scope.
 

evanh

Senior Member
All good points.

I'd like to add something relavant to digital troubleshooting - One shot capture is vital so I have to vote against the analogue option. And multi-channel deep memory capture is just as important for timing comparisons. This is why logic analysers exist. You never have enough channels.

Of course the new price of such deep memory beasts are corporate type pricing, starting from about US$5000 for the rock bottom four channel models but are worth every cent. Eg: You get amazing calibrated accuracy and not just in the timing. I still can't believe how accurate the measurements can be with an 8 bit ADC. The power of dithering, oversampling and digital filters I guess. :)

Best of luck with the hunting,
Evan
 

Dippy

Moderator
Apart from cost there is no point going for analogue. If we're talking about 'feel' then it looks like we'll be comparing CDs to LPs next.(and Growing beards and tapping our feet to Dire Straits)

And next we'll all be quoting jargon from data-sheets to impress.

Anyway, we're off-thread and getting into the Mines-Bigger-Than-Yours realms of posting as usual.

My original Tektronix is a TDS210 1Gs/s 60MHz bandwidth. That I would say to Neurosonic is a very good start.

If I were buying second-hand I would ONLY consider the 'proper' makes, but I would also keep in mind potential repair costs.

So, no I would NOT consider 'Ho Phongs Cheap Oscilliscopes Ltd' even if it claims 300GS/s and coffee dispensing facilities.

If you can afford it, buy a new 'big brand' one with the warranty and calibration. Then you'll be confident that your measuring device is measuring properly - but it'll dent the pocket.

Good luck.
What brand is this one you're looking at by the way?

Edited by - Dippy on 13/06/2006 09:22:00
 

manuka

Senior Member
FWIW our &quot;Stamp&quot; mates over at Parallax now offer a US$149 200kHz 2 ch. USB oscilloscope <A href='http://www.hvwtech.com/products_view.asp?CatID=0&amp;SubCatID=0&amp;SubSubCatID=0&amp;ProductID=118 ' Target=_Blank>External Web Link</a>, that's had great educational uptake. It's displays are quite entrancing &amp; Stamp examples Picaxable.

UPDATE: Price now &lt; US$120

Edited by - stan. swan on 13/06/2006 12:07:24
 

xstamp

Senior Member
Sorry, but I think the Parallax scope would really be too slow for anything other than educational use. You would never be able to debug the most common types of microcontroller timing problems (eg. is that SPI clock edge coming before or after the data changes?). Regarding the analog v PC based scope debate, I have found a combination of analog scope and low cost multi-channel PC based logic state analyzer works well. A simple logic probe can also be a surprising useful debugging tool. All you often need to determine that the PICAXE is outputting pulses on a different pin than you thought you had programmed.

 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
The argument between Analogue and DSO really depends upon what you want to do, and the same applies to bandwidth.

Most of my work has involved debugging one-off or long interval events, verifying timing, checking signal sequencing, or watching signals over long periods of time ( seconds ), all of which are generally best suited to DSO's.

I don't have access to any scope now and the only time I've really suffered from that has been when trying to get some bit-banged serial to work, and in other cases where it would have been nice to verify that what was going in and out of a PICAXE matched what I thought it should be.

I personally wouldn't buy anything which didn't have DSO capabilities, because it wouldn't otherwise meet my main needs.
 

slurp

Senior Member
I'll jump back in.... I'm an engineer but hobby at electronics, I don't have a great budget or benifit of tools at work.

20kHz doesn't come close to modulation rate for standard IR sensors - I discounted most low end handheld and PC scopes on that basis.

Digital is nice for one shot but just out of my price range.

I found a bench top scope, dual trace to 20Mhz for 1/2 the price of a vellaman handheld. No probes, shockingly I spent only &#163;10 on vellaman probes but again budget tight and the hobby attitude was it was good enough for my purpose. 20Mhz much more than any frequency I'm using at the moment by factor of 5.

I guess I spent no more than &#163;50 in all between Ebay for the scope and Farnell or where ever I bought the probes.

I think all the advice is good for consideration but we the comentators can't set your budget or desired features.

Second hand there are some bargains but bear in mind the comments on rack equipment earlier.

Good luck!

regards,
colin




 
 

Neurascenic

New Member
Whoa... Lots to consider.

My local Military base has some HP's and Tek's up on auction. So I was looking at making a bid on those. Unfortunately, the information on them is quite sparse. I am going to assume they don't include probes.

Most of them are 60Mhz or higher (hp's 250Mhz).
You never know about the gov auctions, sometimes you can get a phenominal bargain, and other times you can buy something new for nearlly the same price.

Also, you don't know how abused the items are.

I think for this round, I will merely watch what prices they go for. As well as watch ebay over the same period.

For the time being, my getting a scope is really for me to see what is going on as a learning experience.

For the most part, my circuits are going to rather simple. At least for a while. On the other hand, I don't believe in buying something that doesn't have a little room for growth.

essentially however, I was hoping to stay under $250 US.

Thank you all for your input, it gives me some great considerations for how to best spend my moolah!

-Chris
 

whizzer

Senior Member
Hi Neurascenic
If the military option doesn&#8217;t come off this time you could consider the suggestion made by xstamp as an interim measure:
&#8220;I have found a combination of analog scope and low cost multi-channel PC based logic state analyzer works well. (And) A simple logic probe can also be a surprising useful debugging tool&#8221;.

If you purchased inexpensively, then not much to lose when a better option became available.

Good Luck on this!
 

coniferous

New Member
I'm almost tempted to buy one of these..

http://www.semis.demon.co.uk/Gameboy/DsoDemo/DsoDemo.htm

i know its just a novely.. but its just so cool!

here are the specs:
http://www.elektor-electronics.co.uk/Default.aspx?tabid=30&amp;ProductID=2418

Edited by - coniferous on 18/06/2006 21:55:47
 
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