PICAXE EDITOR Not Responding

dgc188

New Member
I recently upgraded to the latest version of the PICAXE Editor and I now find that, when starting the program, I get the splash screen and the last listing(s) opened in the main window and nothing much else on screen (the splash screen remains) for about 2-3 minutes - no menus or workspace area detail. If I click in the main PICAXE window the top bar indicates the program has become unresponsive. Eventually, all becomes normal. Also whenever I do a save, it seems to take a long time following the actual save to again become responsive.

Looking in Task Manager, there appears to be nothing hogging the machine (either during startup or save, etc). I did do the upgrade from 6.0.9.2 to 6.0.9.3 (latest) some while back. Looking in the Installed Programs I did have both versions listed as installed. Thought this may be the cause with a conflict between the two installed versions. Both were uninstalled and the laptop rebooted. Re-installed 6.0.9.3 and the same slow loading (not responding message) continues.

Running up-to-date Windows 10 Pro with 12GB RAM, 2.50GHz 64-bit Lenovo B5400 laptop.

Can anyone give any indication as to the reason behind this not responding issue during startup, etc.

Many thanks
Dave
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
If the older 6.0.9.2 version was launching and running just fine there is no obvious reason that the latest 6.0.9.3 version should be having problems. It may be worth uninstalling 6.0.9.3 and temporarily going back to 6.0.9.2 to check that the issue is related to that upgrade and isn't something which just happens to be coincidental to it.

From what you say about upgrading 6.0.9.3 a while ago I am guessing it has been fine previously, so it seems something has changed recently.

I have occasionally seen excruciatingly long program start-up times with Windows 10 and Windows 7 when Windows appears to have gone off on its own to do something else or anti-virus software and similar has seemingly decided to hold everything up until they have done whatever they are doing. Most of those cases have been immediately after booting and everything is then fine after those initial delays.

If you close 6.0.9.3 then re-launch it; is it quicker to start than the first time ?

The most common cause of things grinding to a halt for me has been where an external or networked drive has been used but is no longer connected. Windows can sometimes spend some time trying to figure out where that's gone, trying to establish a link to what's no longer there.

Have you been using an external or networked drive, loading or saving from other networked computers ?
 
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dgc188

New Member
Thanks Hippy for the reply.

If I close and then re-open the Editor, it takes just as long to start as the first time. I don't think the earlier version had any startup issues but I'm not able to find the installer for that version. So I'm stuck with 6.0.9.3 (unless there is a repository out there somewhere that a Google search can't find!).

I would have thought that the fresh install, even of 6.0.9.3, would clear out any conflicts between it and any previous version.

Looking at Task Manager, while the program start/load is taking place, there is no CPU load (1% at max), only 1/3 of memory being used (mostly by Google), no disk or network access. It's like the machine has gone to sleep. There's one shared folder to a virtual install of Win XP (via VMWare) on this machine, not running. Maybe there's an anti-virus thing going on, but I'm sure that would reflect in CPU usage or its entry creeping up the processes tab.

The .bas script is loaded from a USB drive and that seems to load/display very quickly - it's the rest of the PICAXE screen that seems to take the time to become visible and responsive, keeping the splash screen visible all the while until everything is displayed and happy with itself.

One thing I spotted in Options, was the Default Save Path showed an invalid S: drive. But that's been there years; so I don't feel that's the problem. but it's been updated to something valid anyway. I thought there was an option somewhere to not display the splash screen - but I can't find it.

Ah well, back to the drawing board......
Dave
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
Did the problems arise immediately you installed 6.0.9.3 or was that working as expected for a while and then the problems started occurring ?

CPU usage isn't always a good indicator of what's going on. High usage does usually means it is tied trying to do something, but if waiting for a response Windows may suspend things while waiting for that or a timeout. An application may be busy waiting but that won't increase CPU usage. It's done that way so other things aren't held up when applications are waiting.

An invalid drive path may cause problems and they may persist even when that is removed because Windows itself can remember it did exist and still try to find it. It might be worth re-booting if you haven't already.
 

dgc188

New Member
Not entirely sure when the slow start up began as it's been a while since I opened the Editor and the grey cells aren't quite as good as they used to be! It might always have been slow (as I'm currently seeing) but I don't think so; I'm sure I would have been asking questions sooner than this. And there's been many boot processes since I had any mapped drives.

Been having a dig around (found 6.0.9.2 in the Users\.....\AppData folder).

In the meanwhile, I tried a full shutdown of Win10 (rather than the normal shutdown) - made no real difference.
Tried disabling the Superfetch service (this seemed to be taking some usage) followed by another full shutdown - again, made little difference. Re-enabled the service.

Next step was remove 6.0.9.3 and re-install 6.0.9.2. Seems to load a little faster, but probably not by much. And as there appears to be little in the revision to 6.0.9.3 that is applicable to what I'll be using the editor for, I'll probably stick with 6.0.9.2 (for now at least). Quite how much of the speed improvement is down to the previous steps, I'm not entirely sure but will keep an eye on the load speed over time and see how it goes.

No doubt there is something else from MS hidden in the OS that is trying to be clever and is (invisibly) slowing things down. Time will tell.

Thanks again Hippy for your thoughts on it, the more the merrier!
Dave
 

joeygbsn

New Member
I for sure noticed this a few weeks ago but was too busy to look into it any further. What i do know is that on my windows 10 laptop pe6 was opening fast but now it behaves the same as dgc188. Im at work now but I'll post version numbers and anything else that may be pertinent later tonight.
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
It sure does seem odd. PE6 doesn't itself auto-update so if something has happened to slow things down, suspicion would have to fall on Windows itself.

And mentioning fall; is it coincidental with the recent, mid-October, Windows 10 Fall Creator update by any chance ?

Disabling the splash screen would have no effect, as it doesn't do anything, won't be the cause of any issues. It is simply an image brought up when PE6 starts and removed once everything else is done, when PE6 is ready to be used.

If the splash screen is coming up it means there is not a problem launching PE6, and bringing up the panels and the list of files used means that's okay too. It seems the issue is when it then comes to finding, opening and reading those files to show them that things slow down. That could be a considerable period if a lot of files need to be opened and each is slow to open. That it's some sort of file access issue would seem to be reflected with saving also being slow.

File saving shouldn't be slow. All PE6 does is tell Windows to create a named file, write what's in the on-screen edit window to it, then close the file. It should be back to normal use in the blink of an eye. If anything is slowing that down it would be Windows or something else rather than PE6.

It might be worth doing some tests with "File -> Save As" to see if problems of slowness occur between clicking the option and the usual save dialogue appearing, or after the "Save" button is clicked and things becoming responsive again.
 

dgc188

New Member
Hmmm! Seems like I've opened a bit of a can or worms - sorry joey if you're having a similar issue of slow starting but I'm pleased I'm not on my own!

The comment about having a large number of files to open "might" have something to do with it. My folder (on a USB stick) had about 36+ files in it, although only two currently being opened when the program starts. I've now cleared out all old files not currently being worked on and I'm now down to just the two (short) bas files (+ their settings files) and the program does seem to start a "little" quicker - not a lot, but quicker. Earlier, it was very, very slow to start - in the order of over a minute.

The order stuff gets displayed on screen is:
splash screen for around 6 seconds seconds before...
bottom left (simulation box) & right (code explorer) appear almost simultaneously....followed after a short delay by the current listing(s)....
then a five second delay before anything else appears....(this was over a minute earlier)
top left (setting box)....
splash screen disappears and we're off and running.

It's that middle delay that seems to be giving me cause for concern - much worse with a large file list, despite the current listing(s) appearing quite quickly before the delay.

At the moment I've not a lot to gripe about with the program start - or following a 'save' but that was after downgrading to 6.0.9.2, doing a full shutdown and also disabling and re-enabling the superfetch service - while disabled, everything did load much slower (as might be expected).

My betting is something in a recent Win10 update has screwed something up as I don't recall these length of delays the last time I used the editor (a month ago and prior to that back in July). Or maybe Win Defender is having a problem with one of the programs components (??). Disabling that is a job for another day.

Cheers all
Dave
 

joeygbsn

New Member
Hmm my pe6 is version 6.0.8.11 but now it seems to be working fine and only taking 5 or so seconds to start. I did have some trouble with the fall creators update making my computer hibernate when I wanted it to shut down. Maybe all the fixes I tried to implement changed something.
 

dgc188

New Member
Addition to last night's comments....

I notice that it takes around 5-6 minutes before the laptop settles down from a power-up, i.e. before superfetch finishes its 'thing' and hogging the disk. I thought MS indicated with Win10 that the startup would be "fast" - not exactly what I'm seeing when any form of early disk access is required by an application. Take starting PE6 for instance; it took almost two minutes for PE6 to become operational from the time the current/last opened listing was displayed and the program becoming responsive. But this was (in part) down to heavy disk usage by superfetch. Anyway, I digress slightly.

Once Win10 became settled, I tried opening PE6 again and was back to the previous 6 second delay between the last listing showing and the program becoming responsive. Still, in my mind, a long time for a program load to be effectively unusable. Overall, PE6 takes around 15 seconds to become responsive from the initial program select to up and running. As a comparison, starting an old version of Word (2002/XP) was almost instantaneous (<1 second) when opening a Word file from Explorer.

Disabling Win Defender seemed to make no difference; certainly it didn't speed things up any. I then added an Exclusion in Defender for the PICAXE program folder (just in case) - the next PE6 start was 90 seconds! Remove the exclusion and we're back to the 6 second delay. I don't have any other virus protection running.

Maybe this is what we have to endure. I don't feel I want to go back to ver.6.0.8.10 or 6.0.8.11 (both of which are available in the AppData folder) - not even to try it out. I'm currently on 6.0.9.2 and see no reason to go to 6.0.9.3 for the few changes made that probably will never apply to my (simple) programming.

Taking you up Joey on your comment about the Fall update and being in hibernation. I checked through the Event Logs this morning to see if there might be any indication of an error creeping in with the PE6 loading and found:

The system has returned from a low power state.

Sleep Time: &#8206;2017&#8206;-&#8206;11&#8206;-&#8206;04T23:47:10.515430300Z
Wake Time: &#8206;2017&#8206;-&#8206;11&#8206;-&#8206;05T07:48:56.331969700Z

An interesting entry! I "powered off" the laptop last night, not put it to sleep, or hibernate. Maybe 'sleep' is an MS'ism for powered off? Who knows. Looking back in the Event Log, the same entry appears as far back as April '17, so nothing seems to have changed in this respect recently. But this is way off topic - interesting, non the less.

Back on topic.....

It just bugs me about the delay in getting PE6 open and available, even though it might only be 15 seconds from calling it.

Cup of tea anyone while I restart PE6?
Dave
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
Overall, PE6 takes around 15 seconds to become responsive from the initial program select to up and running.
That seems about right and is unfortunately the way it is. Just because some programs can start faster doesn't mean all can; those starting faster may not be doing the same amount of work which PE6 and other slow starting programs do in setting everything up to be ready to be usable.

When it comes to Microsoft and similar corporate software those may well have had teams of hundreds and millions of dollars spent on optimising them. Much of what Microsoft programs rely upon may have been loaded during operating system booting so their software's first launch may be quicker than the first launch of PE6 and other programs which have to explicitly load everything they need the first time. Once that loading is done a first time then PE6 starts a lot quicker as is observed.

It would be nice if PE6 started quicker than 15 seconds the first time, 6 seconds subsequent times, but it's more nuisance than anything. Most people won't be opening and closing PE6 regularly so overall it should not be too much of a problem.

Having start up delays greater than that, taking many minutes, is an issue. When PE6 itself is not the cause of that we cannot do much about it but we will do our best to help resolve or at least identify the issue where we can.

One trick for having PE6 ready to use is to add it to the list of programs to run at start-up. That way, with the common practice of turning the computer on in the morning, going for a cup of tea or doing other things, it is ready to use when one comes to first use it. It won't help in all cases but can be useful in many.
 

dgc188

New Member
Thanks hippy on the information that around a 15 second program startup is about correct. But my initial query was the fact of it taking up to/around two minutes before being usable in some cases - that was concerning to me.

Maybe, for a number of reasons, both self deduced, from the likes of joey and digging around the web, there may have been other processes grabbing the machine and yet being invisible to Task Manager (and me). I shall keep a monitoring eye on it and try to be a little more patient. Incidentally, I don't use PE6 enough to put it into the boot/startup process but I take your point.

Thanks for the pointers - we all live and learn!

Dave
 

inglewoodpete

Senior Member
Thanks hippy on the information that around a 15 second program startup is about correct. But my initial query was the fact of it taking up to/around two minutes before being usable in some cases - that was concerning to me.
I too have very slow startup times for PE6 (several minutes at times) on the laptop I use for field work. The computer is a low-end machine with an AMD E1 processor. I've always assumed that the E1 is not really up to the task. My next laptop will have some more grunt!

My main development PC in the office (Intel Core i5 4670 processor with SSD) has no problems with loading PE6, although I am still running Version 6.0.9.1 on it.
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
When Windows boots-up, presents a desktop for the first time, it will likely not have completed everything which it does do at start-up. In the background it can be checking the integrity of disk drives, indexing files, pre-loading files to speed up execution later, connecting to the network, checking for what other computers are on that, re-establishing bluetooth connections, checking and downloading email. Anti-virus software may also undertake some initial integrity checks and scans. Installed programs may run checks for updated software and pre-load libraries for later use when they are started.

All this can hammer a system for quite a while on some set-ups, causing programs started from the desktop to take longer than usual as they battle with everything else busily doing what they are doing. Anti-virus may delay access to external USB devices until they have been scanned for viruses. Once that start-up activity subsides things should become quicker.

Most of this activity may be missed for a desktop PC if the practice is turn it on, make a cup of tea, because it's mostly completed when one returns to it. Laptops of course are used in a somewhat different way; mostly turned on to be used immediately which may make initialisation delays more noticeable.
 

dgc188

New Member
Thanks hippy for the comments re Windows startup and I would wholeheartedly agree, but.... (there's always got to be one!)

I've had this laptop switched on for over four hours, left idle for some while (while I made the proverbial cuppa - and drank it), nothing else active on screen and not much happening in the background (CPU 0%, disk 0%, memory stable, network 0%), started PE6 - took around the two minutes mark to be usable. That's not Windows startup, not after four hours.

On other occasions, it does in fact take only a few seconds (around 15 of them). But that's when it's probably still in memory from a previous opening during the current run-time. Even then, I've known it take two minutes. Nothing is consistent, but, more often than not, it takes two minutes to startup.

It's annoying to say the least.

Next week, when I get the chance, I'll install PE6 on my virtual XP Pro install and see how that starts up. My guess is that MS, in their infinite wisdom, have done something in one of the recent Win 10 updates that has had this strange effect on the PE6 application.

Dave
 
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rq3

Senior Member
Thanks hippy for the comments re Windows startup and I would wholeheartedly agree, but.... (there's always got to be one!)

I've had this laptop switched on for over four hours, left idle for some while (while I made the proverbial cuppa - and drank it), nothing else active on screen and not much happening in the background (CPU 0%, disk 0%, memory stable, network 0%), started PE6 - took around the two minutes mark to be usable. That's not Windows startup, not after four hours.

On other occasions, it does in fact take only a few seconds (around 15 of them). But that's when it's probably still in memory from a previous opening during the current run-time. Even then, I've known it take two minutes. Nothing is consistent, but, more often than not, it takes two minutes to startup.

It's annoying to say the least.

Next week, when I get the chance, I'll install PE6 on my virtual XP Pro install and see how that starts up. My guess is that MS, in their infinite wisdom, have done something in one of the recent Win 10 updates that has had this strange effect on the PE6 application.

Dave

PE6 on my antique Dell laptop running XP Pro takes 1 minute 24 seconds to start. I just expect it, and live with it.
 

inglewoodpete

Senior Member
10 seconds from the click to being available with last project loaded. Intel Core i5 4670 processor with SSD (W10/64), booted 20 minutes earlier, although I am still running PE Version 6.0.9.1 on it.
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
On my home, slowish, dual-core PC running XP it's about 20 seconds for the first launch. The slower the PC then the slower it will be, but there's no obvious reason it should be slower when using a faster, well resourced PC or laptop.

That PE6 is not always extremely slow, can be as fast as it would be expected to be, is slow in the places where it exhibits that slowness, suggests it is not an issue of PE6 itself, but something else.
 

dgc188

New Member
Interesting to hear others folks reports, thanks guys.

Running Win 10 Pro as a host machine, then over-laying Win XP Pro (up-to-date with latest MS issued security patches / latest update applied 2/11/2017) with VMWare; installed PE6 v.6.0.9.3 - XP rebooted a couple of times. Win XP Pro is running with a miserly 2GB RAM and sharing processor power with the Win10 base machine, while the total RAM for the laptop being 12GB, i.e. 10GB for Win10 with XP running with 2GB.

Working as a subsidiary machine I would have expected PE6 to be relatively slow to start. In some respects it was:
initial wait for the splash screen - about 12 seconds (longer than Win10);
splash screen on screen whilst waiting for PE6 to produce it's display - 12 seconds (longer than Win10);
PE6 becoming responsive with basic, original options - <2 seconds (much quicker than any startup on Win10;
XP rebooted;
PE6 becoming responsive with the same file as previously tested with under Win10 - <2 seconds (WOW! that's fast!).

With Win XP still running, I tried PE6 loading on the base Win10 machine. This time it was generally slower to initially start to the splash screen, as might be expected as resources are being shared, but only around one minute to become fully responsive. On occasion, I have had PE6 (on Win10) start with around a 15 second delay, so with a sharing of resources I guess the one minute startup would relate to the otherwise 15 second Win10 startup.

Sod's law says I'd get a quick startup while doing some testing with XP running in the background! As far a I am aware, both areas of RAM (XP : Win10) are totally separate spaces and not mutually accessible.

To me, this indicates that where I have had delays in bringing the FULL PE6 screen up and the program becoming responsive (as per my original query of around 2 minutes) is down to some conflict between PE6 and Win10 and not necessarily PE6 itself. Quite what Win10 is doing with PE6 is well beyond my understanding.

For what it's worth, those are my findings on THIS machine. Maybe I'll try PE6 on my (old) desktop just Win XP Pro installed, it's a rather slow, resource challenged bit of kit!

If PE6 is destined to be a slow starter (for whatever reason) then it's still a good program and will continue to be used by myself. I ain't ditching it because of it, that's for sure. I just felt that at some stage, a change in startup times had been noticed and a comment/query needed to be posted in case there was something "I" was missing.

Dave
 
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