OT : Why build when you can buy ?

Buzby

Senior Member

techElder

Well-known member
Other than for the education from the project, the reason to build anything is for the customization of it. The focus of my projects is never the hardware. The focus is always the software.
 

Buzby

Senior Member
That's a very interesting board. You can even program it in Forth ...
Now that's a good reason to buy !.

The board as it stands does 95% of what I need, and 150% of what I don't need
.
EDIT : Not quite right. It does 100% of what I need, and 200% extra.

So with Forth I could reprogram the gadget to do exactly what I want, and I like programming in Forth !.

I'm ordering some today.

Cheers,

Buzby
 
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Pongo

Senior Member
Coincidentally I was just talking to someone using one of these to control a rain gauge heater, it's working well. Only $2.20 with free shipping on ebay.com. Just the mailing cost from Los Angeles would be more than that, and I sure couldn't send it to China for that. The US postal service must have a lousy deal with China post.
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
When you can buy cheaper than the individual components would cost and there's no effort required to make it work then there's no compelling reason not to.

The main arguments against would be that it doesn't do what is required, no way to make it do that, or there is insufficient documentation for how to use it. And of course one has to make a judgement call on the quality and appropriateness of the module which one may only be able to assess once it has arrived and been paid for.

Unless it does exactly what one wants and one intends to make it do what one wants, one is simply moving effort from making what is wanted to making what one has do what one wants. Time costs money but, as a hobby, time is often 'free' or justified in terms of 'fun' or gaining knowledge or experience.

It's up to each individual to determine what's best; design one's own, buy and use off the shelf, buy and modify. Each has its pros and cons.

I wanted to be able to carry a list of my DVD's and CD's with me when out shopping so I didn't buy things I already owned and waste money. I thought of a PICAXE solution, thought of an SBC solution, but eventually ended up with a really cheap Android phone and writing an app to use that.

I'm a great fan of repurposing and buying things just to rip useful parts out of. I have a network audio player which has a 64x128 OLED, have a couple of 'Chase the LED' toys I dismantled to get the hundred or so tri-colour LED's out of. When something already does 95% of what is required it's definitely an option. Manufacturers can often achieve economies of scale that can't be matched elsewhere and there's no reason not to take advantage of that.

Except for considering when their economies of scale put every other manufacturer out of business through being unable to compete but that's probably a topic for elsewhere.
 

AllyCat

Senior Member
Hi,

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned :

ShenZhen.png

Are you prepared to wait until Valentine's Day (or later) to start your project? I suspect you could still get a PICaxe from Rev Ed delivered before Christmas. ;)

However, there is little point in building something that you can buy ready-made. But the economics are probably not as bad as building a car from (new) "spare parts".

Cheers, Alan.
 
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Buzby

Senior Member
It's available from UK sellers as well, but at three times the price. ( Still not bad though. )

A PICAXE from Rev-eD, even if it does get here by Christmas, won't let me program it in Forth.

I like Forth, and I feel this could be a new platform for me to play with, especially as it doesn't use C or begin with A )

Merry Christmas,

Buzby
 

stan74

Senior Member

Buzby

Senior Member
Eee, when I were a lad, I wanted to build a fancy workbench, with a couple of adjustable PSUs, some DVMs, and a dual beam CRO.

Back then this was all available, but way beyond my means.

Nowadays I could build double that, and still have change from £25, .... but only because of China.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

( I'll just have a Christmas tipple instead . )

Cheeers,

Zubzy.
 

geezer88

Senior Member
I can't believe folks haven't come up with the real answer: It's fun, entertaining, and educational to roll your own. But when time presses, one tends to think outside the workbench.

tom
 

fernando_g

Senior Member
All of the above are very valid reasons.
But I have another one:
An engineer who likes to tinker and think about a project, actually becomes a better engineer.

This is of course, not a scientific analysis. But based on many years of experience interviewing people, I have found that people who have an active interest on a hands-on hobby, even if it is carpentry, become very good engineers.
 

premelec

Senior Member
I enjoyed building dozens of Heathkits - some for moderate pay for the joy of building stuff and learning about new parts and styles of construction... First major project i remember was a transmitter I built 66 years ago - though crystal controlled it transmitted on a multiplicity of frequencies at once and I learned about common ground points. Building I learn more also it takes longer for final working device... and yes... I buy gizmos from China ;-0 However there is a satisfaction in designing and building something that works. A recent device was a digital battery tester - Chinese up converter and 0-30v DVM - the .8 to 4 volts from battery are up converted to 5v to drive display and load the battery... less bulky than d'arsonval meter and digital :)
 

stan74

Senior Member
I bought a serial GLCD for about £8. It's not a smart GLCD like RE sell for £65 but hippy and the guys on the forum helped me sort it.
Getting it to work has made me learn most of the picaxe features and it's basic commands..to me, more satisfaction than buying a smart GLCD although at one point I wish I had :)
 

Thomas9541

New Member
Hello Buzby,

Here's a BigClive video on the operation of the board:
https://youtu.be/yVD0zkZTe00
And a little more info including schematics:
https://github.com/TG9541/stm8ef/wiki/STM8S-Value-Line-Gadgets

I think I'll order a one just to play with. Maybe I can get it to blink an led. :)

Rick
Hi Rick, hi Buzby,

you'll find a Blinky one-liner for Arduino-style instant gratification on the Wiki page you mentioned. Don't forget to order an ST-Link adapter of you don't already have one. Please share your experience with STM8 eForth (preferably only the good parts ;-)).

/Thomas
 

Technoman

Senior Member
Getting it to work has made me learn ...
.

I agree with that... when you've got the time to do it.

These days you can get many sensors and actuators for cheap. When it comes to the software side, for some sophisticated devices, you can't expect a library as provided for Arduino's.

You'll spend some time to get it works. Thanks to all folks ready to help and code snippets found on the forum. But, it's far away from the ease given by libraries, good ones or to be improved : you can quickly run an app using a device. It is where I see the major drawback in programming with Picaxe chips.
 

MFB

Senior Member
I can still remember when it was cheaper to build it yourself, because it was invariably cheaper but globalisation has really changed the dynamics. Not only has this acted as a disincentive to hobbyists but also made it difficult for small start-ups to be viable in the UK. On the positive side, it is possible to rapidly develop systems of increased performance and complexity using module level electronics.
 

stan74

Senior Member
I can still remember when it was cheaper to build it yourself, because it was invariably cheaper but globalisation has really changed the dynamics. Not only has this acted as a disincentive to hobbyists but also made it difficult for small start-ups to be viable in the UK. On the positive side, it is possible to rapidly develop systems of increased performance and complexity using module level electronics.
I remember when you couldn't buy from radio spares unless you were in the trade.
 

premelec

Senior Member
I used to buy lots of parts from major suppliers [Newark, Allied etc] as well as salvaging hundreds of parts from discard electronics - however the majors started having minimum orders - pushing it toward parts from China with attendant delivery delays... It is discouraging to me that more newcomers don't recognise the wealth of parts that can be salvaged from discarded electronics... As a teenager I learned to overcome my hesitation to deal with "Wholesale Only" radio parts stores and indeed got a lot of help with getting the right 'grid leak resistor' [what's that? ;-0] learned to make fun of people wanting "half a 12AU7" because only one half tested bad... It's indeed a Brave New World in electronics...
 

erco

Senior Member
I had a blast tonight building this $4.79 AM/FM radio kit: http://www.ebay.com/itm/112216788500 I def got that Heathkit vibe. Kit was complete, it worked the first time, a very satisfying feeling. ~Two hours of building and guessing what the Chinese instructions were saying. Certainly not the most sensitive or selective radio out there, but I made it. I also ordered this fully assembled AM/FM radio for $3.96: http://www.ebay.com/itm/391613508596. Cheaper and assembled. Probably works better too, will advise upon receipt. But building something, even from a kit, is educational and inherently satisfying. Even therapeutic.

In the glory days of Heathkit, you would learn as you built. The assembly books were great, and they also contained troubleshooting procedures which were also very helpful and educational.

 
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Steve2381

Senior Member
I buy lots of the cheap modules from China and stick them in stock. When I am building a project, its handy to have a small, ready to hand supply of assembled relay/delay timers, LCD displays, thermostats, op-amps, amplifiers, opto isolated relays, sensors etc.
I do sometimes build them from scratch, but invariably the pre-made module is far more accurate than something I build anyway!
Same goes for Arduino shields, large selection boxes of leds, machine screws etc. As long as you are not desperate for them, they are handy stock items.
 

Pongo

Senior Member
I used to buy lots of parts from major suppliers [Newark, Allied etc] as well as salvaging hundreds of parts from discard electronics - however the majors started having minimum orders - pushing it toward parts from China with attendant delivery delays... It is discouraging to me that more newcomers don't recognise the wealth of parts that can be salvaged from discarded electronics... As a teenager I learned to overcome my hesitation to deal with "Wholesale Only" radio parts stores and indeed got a lot of help with getting the right 'grid leak resistor' [what's that? ;-0] learned to make fun of people wanting "half a 12AU7" because only one half tested bad... It's indeed a Brave New World in electronics...
Mouser and DigiKey are still small order friendly :) (DigiKey's service is amazing.)

With the surface mount revolution the salvage possibilities are way more limited these days :(
 

AllyCat

Senior Member
Hi,

Mouser and DigiKey are still small order friendly :) (DigiKey's service is amazing.)
Hmm, not apparently in UK, but I guess there's "SMALL" and "small" : "A delivery charge of £12.00 will be billed on all orders of less than £33.00. Free delivery is offered for all orders of £33.00 and greater." (that's more than US$40, even at current rates) .

But we do have CPC (Farnell) wih free shipping above £5 (£6 with VAT) and a few ebay.co.uk "Chinglish" prices actually seem to be less than their equivalent US$ on ebay.com. ;)

Cheers, Alan.
 

stan74

Senior Member
CPC are ok Alan. RS here, in US radio shack-we called tandy where I paid £5 for a 2114 1K ram for a zx81 and you needed 2 for 1K. Everything was over packaged!
I still use an advance audio generator, uses 2 valves and one of them is a rectifier but gives low harmonic sine. I got a hp freq counter that uses 4 nixie tube and obsolete chips but doesn't count anymore. Too nice to sling.
 

premelec

Senior Member
@Pongo... I'd suggest Jameco as well as Mouser & DigiKey and various surplus dealers - there are strange charges from RevEd as orders to USA go over some magic amount when I've ordered in the past... I like the free shipping concept including it in the pricing and offering discounts for higher $ orders... no surprises of things costing twice what you thought they would... ;-0
 

Pongo

Senior Member
Hi,
Hmm, not apparently in UK, but I guess there's "SMALL" and "small" : "A delivery charge of £12.00 will be billed on all orders of less than £33.00. Free delivery is offered for all orders of £33.00 and greater." (that's more than US$40, even at current rates) .

But we do have CPC (Farnell) wih free shipping above £5 (£6 with VAT) and a few ebay.co.uk "Chinglish" prices actually seem to be less than their equivalent US$ on ebay.com. ;)

Cheers, Alan.
Agreed, I made the mistake of suggesting digikey to someone over there. I don't understand how DigiKey UK works...

At least you guys have Maplin, nothing similar exists here after the slow painful death of Radio Shack/Tandy.

@Pongo... I'd suggest Jameco as well as Mouser & DigiKey and various surplus dealers - there are strange charges from RevEd as orders to USA go over some magic amount when I've ordered in the past... I like the free shipping concept including it in the pricing and offering discounts for higher $ orders... no surprises of things costing twice what you thought they would... ;-0
I used to live not far from Jameco, they're a great company and their "will call" service (forgotten what that is in Britspeak, "trade counter"?) was great. I guess my needs have changed and I rarely use them now. Surplus guys, Electronic Goldmine, Marlin P Jones, All Electronics are ones I've used in the not too distant past. Sadly the days of being able to drive to Mountain View and pick up a surplus IR tracker from a Sidewinder are over, but Halted Specialties are still in business.

I get my picaxes from P H Anderson (actually his son now), his shipping costs are very reasonable :)
 

AllyCat

Senior Member
Hi,

At least you guys have Maplin,
Yes, I do try to "support" Maplin, but some prices do appear rather high. However, I was quite surprised to discover that it's still possible to buy a single resistor of any value (or a Zener in my case) from most of their shops, at a reasonable price. Rather worryingly, the last few times I've visited my local store, the customers have been outnumbered by the staff. :(

Also, I was sad to see that Dick Smith have "disappeared" from Australia/NZ. But, I did fail to find what I had wanted in one of their stores a few years ago, so it seems the rot may have already set in then. I refrain from using the term "decline", because I gather their failure was due to excessive (unjustified) expansion.

Ebay sellers seem to employ one of two strategies: Some give "free" shipping (with the benefit that "5 stars" are then guarateed for that) whilst others "subsidise" their low headline prices by high shipping charges. Rev Ed appear to prefer the latter strategy (with a rather steeply graduated shipping scale), but do give excellent customer service.

Cheers, Alan.
 

Buzby

Senior Member
... Yes, I do try to "support" Maplin, ... it's still possible to buy a single resistor of any value (or a Zener in my case) from most of their shops, ...
Er yes, but if you want 10 of anything they've never got that many in stock, and I don't think it's because there been a sudden run on the specific component I need 10 of.

Maplin used to be great, with a catalogue including circuits ( and cool covers with spaceships ), but now it concentrates of selling gadgets, and components are a dwindling offering.
 

premelec

Senior Member
@Pongo - BGMicro.com ok too and I hadn't heard of Halted Specialties. There used to be a lot of surplus stores in my area and now none - last one went bankrupt early this year... since we have a lot of tech stuff in this area that indicates people are getting their parts elsewhere. I've sold and bought on Ebay - preferable to giving stuff to recyclers ;-0 Also a long time electric motor company went belly up - they would rebuild motors into multi horsepower range... don't know where that business went... maybe motors not burning up anymore. Or Chinese replacement cheaper than rebuild...
 

inglewoodpete

Senior Member
Firstly, on-topic, I would generally not "reinvent the wheel", unless an off-the-shelf module is too expensive, too hard to get hold of or could be hard to repair or replace in the event of a failure. Yes, I avoid those "chip under a blob" modules.

Yes, I do try to "support" Maplin, but some prices do appear rather high. However, I was quite surprised to discover that it's still possible to buy a single resistor of any value (or a Zener in my case) from most of their shops, at a reasonable price. Rather worryingly, the last few times I've visited my local store, the customers have been outnumbered by the staff.
In Australia, the high cost of labour and retail display/storage space are a major part of the cost of electronics components sold to hobbyists. Small transactions are likely to produce a loss to the business but suppliers have little option - a surcharge for transactions under a threshold is not good for business in the hobby world. I feel guilty if I have to go to a local components retailer and spend only a few dollars.

I'm in business in a niche market where I design and manufacture specialist electronic devices under contract for clients. The cost of components can represent only a few percent of the project's cost. I carry a 'stock' of most of the common components, running into thousands of dollars. Even then, I will spend thousands on components annually. At least the retailers know me and also know that I put a lot of business their way.

Also, I was sad to see that Dick Smith have "disappeared" from Australia/NZ. But, I did fail to find what I had wanted in one of their stores a few years ago, so it seems the rot may have already set in then. I refrain from using the term "decline", because I gather their failure was due to excessive (unjustified) expansion.
The Dick Smith business imploded in the last couple of years due to bad management and, reportedly, asset stripping in a business sale deal. They started out as a hobbyist component supplier in the 1970s but then diversified into consumer electronics. The higher unit profit for audio, TV, computers, games and phones seduced them away from hobbyist components. They had not sold components for about five years prior to their demise. The highly competitive consumer electronics market, with the advent of on-line marketing, signalled their demise.

In Australia, we are lucky to have healthy networks of national and international suppliers of electronic components. My preferred supplier is the locally based national supplier, Altronics, who conveniently sell many PICAXE products. For specialist components, I have to rely on the international buying power of Element 14, RS Components and Digikey. On the world stage, Australia's market plays a pretty small part.
 

manuka

Senior Member
Inglewoodpete: A good overview of the DSE disaster. However perhaps mention that Australian firm Jaycar now pretty much occupy the e-niche once held by Dick Smith. Although they've declined to handle PICAXE products,almost every "down under" town now has such a Jaycar outlet -we've over 50 in NZ alone. Stan.
 

Pongo

Senior Member
@premelec: Thanks for the BG Micro reminder, hadn't been there for years but I've put them back on my list. Another one with some unusual stuff is Herbach and Rademan, and American Science and Surplus has, well, all kinds of crap LOL but there are some gems from time to time.

Dick Smith is a sad story. We had a few stores here in California for a while, they had some interesting kits as I recall but never achieved anything like critical mass.
 

stan74

Senior Member
True about maplin but visit the store and there's some bargains,like a vellerman serial pic programmer for £9.99. I have made one for £2 but even pic programmers like pickit2 are only £5 on ebay. They do clearance/returns robots and other hackable toys sometimes.
Who buys 1 resistor? :)
 

premelec

Senior Member
@Pongo - yes I've bought from H&R and AmSciSurp in past - have to admit I've got too much stuff... When I checked into H&R just now they featured a 500Ml glass bottle for $5... I just look in recycling bins... ;-0 I've never been but recall something called Frys... [I think that was their name...] happy tinkering!
 

Jeremy Harris

Senior Member
The real problem is none of these "real shop" companies can hope to complete on running costs with the on-line retailers, and the higher-end online retailers have now got their delivery times down to 24 hours or so. Both Farnell (element14/CPC) and Rapid Electronics are almost certain to deliver next day, at prices that are usually way under those from Maplin. For those prepared to wait, then no-one can really beat the Chinese sellers, though, who seem to offer some incredibly good value stuff (along with a whole lot of very iffy tat).

The exception seems to be niche markets here. I recently bought a Raspberry Pi 3 to use as a home server, and the best value and fastest delivery for all the parts I needed was direct from a small UK online retailer. The service was on a par with that from Rev Ed, which is praise indeed, as Rev Ed have always been my benchmark for quality and speedy delivery.

FWIW, I've had one of those cheap Chinese thermostats working for around a year now. It seems to work fine, but having the buttons in the middle of the circuit board very much limits its usability in many projects, as you can't easily get to them once the thing is in a box, at least not without poking something down holes drilled in the box.
 

premelec

Senior Member
A small length of dowel or aluminum with a cup in it's end and glue would do the job for you.... or a trained cricket... ;-0
 
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