Fake FTDI chip Problem (This May Be Urgent)

DL8OV

New Member
Users need to be aware that there is a major problem with the latest update to the FTDI USB software. If the USB device does not use a genuine FTDI chip then the USB device will be 'bricked' by the driver software and the PID in the chip will be set to 0. I know that the USB to serial cables sold by PICAXE/Revolution Education use the FTDI driver but please could someone from PIXAXE tell us if their cables use genuine chips in the AXE027 cable?

Until this matter is resolved DO NOT update the FTDI drivers using Windows Update.

References:
http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/14/10/22/185244/ftdi-reportedly-bricking-devices-using-competitors-chips
http://hackaday.com/2014/10/22/watch-that-windows-update-ftdi-drivers-are-killing-fake-chips/
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/ftdi-driver-kills-fake-ftdi-ft232/

Peter DL8OV
 

Goeytex

Senior Member
The AXE027 uses a genuine FTDI chip, so unless someone is using a cable or adapter from a dubious source there should be no problems.
 

DL8OV

New Member
Good, thank you for putting our minds at rest. Now all I need are replies from the manufacturer of my oscilloscope, my VNA, my logic analyzer, my MP3 player and my phone :(

Peter DL8OV
 

Technical

Technical Support
Staff member
Users need to be aware that there is a major problem with the latest update to the FTDI USB software. If the USB device does not use a genuine FTDI chip then the USB device will be 'bricked' by the driver software and the PID in the chip will be set to 0.
The FTDI software drivers are only licensed to use with genuine chips. Use with fake chips is not licensed, and so can always lead to trouble.

All PICAXE products use genuine FTDI chips.
 

Jeremy Harris

Senior Member
The problem here is that every manufacturer of a product with an FTDI chip in it is going to have to waste time answering many questions from concerned customers, the vast majority of whom won't have a clue about the technical issues behind the reported problem.

I can understand FTDI's concern, and firmly believe that counterfeiting is wrong, but killing devices that consumers have purchased in good faith isn't the best way to go about dealing with this problem, as it both alienates consumers and may cause many wholly innocent manufacturers to waste a lot of time and effort in reassuring their customers.

The story goes that this FTDI driver update is being released as an automatic Windows update. I have no idea how to do a thorough check for what Windows is really doing when it does an automatic update, other than checking the rather brief descriptions it gives on screen. The Win 7 machine I'm using at the moment updated a few days ago, and a look through the update list in the control panel makes no mention of any FTDI update (but I know that I have the FTDI driver installed).

Like others here, I suspect, I have a couple of FTDI devices other than the AXE027, including a Sparkfun USB-Serial board that I use with another system. I have absolutely no way of knowing whether the other FTDI boards are genuine or not, and as far as I can tell I have no way of checking whether or not my PC has already updated the FTDI driver to the one that bricks counterfeit devices. So, right now, all I can do is be assured that the AXE027 will be OK, but dare not use the other devices in case they get bricked (and as one is built in to a system it would render that system useless, too).

All told this doesn't seem a clever thing for FTDI to have done, and I'll be looking around for another USB to serial solution that doesn't use any FTDI products, as I really don't want to do business with a company that penalises innocent consumers for the activities of crooks. Apple have done this with the last IoS update that rendered pretty much all third party hardware add ons useless (my other half got caught out when her iPad camera card reader stopped working after an IoS update) and that convinced me to never buy another Apple product; it seems FTDI have chosen to use the same tactics.
 

tony_g

Senior Member
well my pc just did a lot of auto updates and thankfully my axe027 and ikalogic logic analyzer are all ok ( not sure if the logic uses that chip though ).

now if only this darn pickit3 was as reliable on a daily basis lol.

maybe i better change update settings to wait for approval first from now on

edit: and also my fleabay ftdi to usb seems ok as well, i just used it to send uart data from pic to pc, now i am shocked especially for an ebay buy :p
 

Jeremy Harris

Senior Member
It'd be nice to know if there is a way of both detecting whether this driver update is just being installed without warning, or if some user intervention is needed that makes it clear that the update they are installing includes the FTDI driver and gives an option to not install it.

If anyone near knows how to find this stuff out on later Windows machines (post-XP) then I think that would be useful, as I'm sure others here use USB-Serial converters from time to time (I couldn't have got some of the serial drive extras I've used with Picaxe projects to work without using a USB-serial converter to work out some of the quirks in the interface, using a terminal running under windows, for example).
 

tony_g

Senior Member
it should just be a case of changing windows update to notify you of pending updates and giving you the option to pick and choose which ones to install and hide others you dont ever want so they dont keep popping up every so often.
 

techElder

Well-known member
Jeremy, for someone that has demonstrated an extraordinary handle on logic, IMHO your comment is so illogical that it must render manufacturers speechless and/or explode their heads.

All told this doesn't seem a clever thing for FTDI to have done, and I'll be looking around for another USB to serial solution that doesn't use any FTDI products, as I really don't want to do business with a company that penalises innocent consumers for the activities of crooks. Apple have done this with the last IoS update that rendered pretty much all third party hardware add ons useless (my other half got caught out when her iPad camera card reader stopped working after an IoS update) and that convinced me to never buy another Apple product; it seems FTDI have chosen to use the same tactics.
 

Goeytex

Senior Member
I highly doubt that there are many "innocent manufacturers" using fake FTDI chips. The manufacturers using these fakes are using unauthorized/unverified supply sources to save on component cost. Cheapskates trying to save a buck and maximize profits. These "innocent manufacturers" are just as culpable as the criminals manufacturing the fake chips. They get zero sympathy from me.

The "innocent consumers" such as folks who purchase cheap FTDI products from dubious sources with a history of casting a blind eye to counterfeits are not as innocent as they seem. The Internet has plenty of information available to cure them of their ignorance. But sadly, many are willingly ignorant and just want to buy the cheapest thing available. These get little sympathy from me.
 

Hemi345

Senior Member
Re: Windows Updates. I seriously doubt this FTDI driver would be downloaded and installed as part of Microsoft's Critical/Important Updates. In Windows Vista,7,8, there's an option to "Give me recommended updates the same way I receive important updates". Uncheck that. That's the option that delivers driver updates and most likely the FTDI driver update will be part of those. Also Recommended Updates are more verbose in their descriptions so it'll probably be easier to identify the FTDI driver among those.
 

Buzby

Senior Member
I agree with Jeremy :

....killing devices that consumers have purchased in good faith isn't the best way to go about dealing with this problem...
A more acceptable solution would be to show a dialogue box, warning the user that the update can't be applied to this device.

FTDI have discovered a way to identify the fake chip via the USB interface. Does anyone know of any test program that a user could use to do the same ?
 

fernando_g

Senior Member
Using gray market chips and/or unlicensed software is one of the many ways shady vendors use to lower costs.

And remove "un-necessary" components like decoupling capacitors or protection devices.

Unfortunately there are vendors that charge premium prices and still use those cost reduction "opportunities".
 

Goeytex

Senior Member
It amazes me how intelligent people expect a manufacturer not to take decisive action to protect their intellectual property. It is next to impossible to bring suit against the counterfeiters since China and some other countries have no respect for IP rights. What, are they supposed to send a legal team China and file a lawsuit?

The fact is that it is illegal to use FTDI Drivers on non FTDI devices, yet amazingly, there are those who actually believe that FTDI should provide driver support to end users of fake devices. Somehow a "good faith" purchase from a shady supplier/manufacturer makes it all ok?
 

Dippy

Moderator
Likewise, I have no sympathy for counterfeit chip manufacturers or those who who use dodgy chips in their products.
There will be some manufacturers/retailers who are totally aware and some who, for various reasons including stupidity, get seen off.
I've seen both happen.
Nor do I have any time for retailers who knowingly deceive people.

I do have some sympathy, however, for those who aren't aware of the problem (though it is well known) and buy something that has a dodgy component in it.
People should, however, use a little common sense and think twice when they see a 'fancy' product for tuppence.
(I am talking about literal counterfeit goods and not some cheap alternative with a different name where we can make an informed purchase).

Yes, genuine products cost more. But, putting taking-the-mick to one side, there are many good reasons.
I can't help feeling that it is somewhat encumbant upon us, the consumer, to be a little bit more careful about what we buy and where we buy it.
We can often reduce our risks with a little investigation but I've seen examples of 'good faith' purchases going wrong.

If I were Jeremy I wouldn't turn my ire towards FTDI but instead highlight the manufacturers/retailers dealing in fake items.
Wouldn't you try to protect your product when your profits, reputation and possibly existence was at stake?
And if you see a TingTong 300GHz oscilloscope for £85 then something smells a little fishy.
I see so many occasions where there is a strange 'competition' to buy the cheapest and then wonder why it's rubbish and spend 20 pages on a Forum (not this one) expecting the brains to fix it.
 

srnet

Senior Member
And if you see a TingTong 300GHz oscilloscope for £85 then something smells a little fishy.
Or indeed you buy a USB serial lead for £1 - £2 on eBay and then expect someone to else to help you get it working, for free .......
 

Circuit

Senior Member
I can understand FTDI's concern, and firmly believe that counterfeiting is wrong, but killing devices that consumers have purchased in good faith isn't the best way to go about dealing with this problem
I think that you will find that this is standard practice in other industries; if you send a fake watch to the real manufacturer, in good faith, to have the battery changed you are likely to find that it is returned with a hole drilled right through the centre of the mechanism. Destruction of fakes is fair and legal and it is essential to protect the original manufacturer from whom the sale has been stolen. It is unfortunate that FTDI cannot actually destroy the fake chips remotely - that would be the ideal solution. And if you really want a "horror story" about people buying what they believe to be genuine and then finding it to be a fake, have a look here...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-26000331
 

Jeremy Harris

Senior Member
Jeremy, for someone that has demonstrated an extraordinary handle on logic, IMHO your comment is so illogical that it must render manufacturers speechless and/or explode their heads.


I can't see that it's illogical at all.

Most consumers won't have a clue as to whether the device they've bought has an FTDI chip in it that's providing USB functionality, I suspect. Users of this forum may have if they are using them at the component level, but there are one or two devices I have around the house with a USB interface that I strongly suspect gets converted to serial in the device - my house ventilation system controller being the obvious example, as I'm pretty sure the main unit has a serial connection to the controller yet the controller has a USB port to plug in a laptop to download logged data.

Perhaps I'm a bit coloured in this view by our experience with an iPad, bought as a gift for my wife last year. She wanted to download photos from a camera to the iPad, and so needed a special SD card reader that matched the unusual interface that Apple use. She went to the local camera shop and bought one and it worked perfectly. A few weeks later Apple issued an iOS update which bricked the £30 SD card reader. Unknown to us it wasn't an approved Apple product. We took it back to the shop, and they said that they had received many similar complaints, but it wasn't their fault, as the damage was caused by our own actions in opting to accept an Apple iOS update. When they sold it to us it worked perfectly with the iPad, and they weren't going to accept responsibility for something Apple had chosen to do. I'm guessing that the Apple/SD card reader problem was caused by something very like this latest FTDI one, in that Apple wanted people to buy only their own brand accessories, so went out of their way to destroy any devices made by third parties. The problem is they gave no warning to consumers that this was going to happen. It's for this reason I will never buy another Apple product, no matter how desirable it may be.

In the case of my ventilation system controller I don't have a clue as to whether it uses an FTDI device, and I don't have a clue as to whether I could brick the whole controller by plugging in my laptop to download next months data. That's the reason I think that FTDI are being wholly unreasonable, and why I won't ever knowingly buy a product from them again.

The easy and sensible thing for them to have done was warn consumers of what they were doing, so we had the choice as to whether to take the risk. I'm not going to risk bricking a £400 controller until I know for sure whether it has an FTDI chip in it, which means pestering the technical department of the Danish manufacturer to give me an answer.
 

techElder

Well-known member
It's for this reason I will never buy another Apple product, no matter how desirable it may be.

Here's the illogical part. Your complaint and problem with your purchased hardware was because you didn't buy an Apple product to begin with! You bought something else to save a few bits. You got burned and blame it on the original manufacturer! Illogical.

Insert FTDI for Apple above and now you understand what this is about.

Perhaps I'm a bit coloured in this view by our experience with an iPad, bought as a gift for my wife last year. She wanted to download photos from a camera to the iPad, and so needed a special SD card reader that matched the unusual interface that Apple use. She went to the local camera shop and bought one and it worked perfectly. A few weeks later Apple issued an iOS update which bricked the £30 SD card reader. Unknown to us it wasn't an approved Apple product. We took it back to the shop, and they said that they had received many similar complaints, but it wasn't their fault, as the damage was caused by our own actions in opting to accept an Apple iOS update. When they sold it to us it worked perfectly with the iPad, and they weren't going to accept responsibility for something Apple had chosen to do. I'm guessing that the Apple/SD card reader problem was caused by something very like this latest FTDI one, in that Apple wanted people to buy only their own brand accessories, so went out of their way to destroy any devices made by third parties. The problem is they gave no warning to consumers that this was going to happen. It's for this reason I will never buy another Apple product, no matter how desirable it may be.
 

Buzby

Senior Member
... I'm not going to risk bricking a £400 controller until I know for sure whether it has an FTDI chip in it, ...
Does anyone know of any software that can determine if a target device contains a fake FTDI, a real FTDI, or a totally different chip ?.
 

Hemi345

Senior Member
It looks like FTDI pulled the drivers from Windows Update. A new non-destructive driver is scheduled for release next week. See this statement by FTDI CEO, Fred Dart: http://www.ftdichipblog.com/?p=1053

Buzby, per the link above, FTDI have a way to detect if a device contains a fake.
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
Does anyone know of any software that can determine if a target device contains a fake FTDI, a real FTDI, or a totally different chip ?.
From descriptions of how the driver detected fake chips, if they are correct, then it would seem possible to apply the same techniques but in a way which left them as before testing.

I am not aware of any software which can currently do that but would imagine some people are considering how it could be done and may be working towards developing such software.
 

Jeremy Harris

Senior Member

Here's the illogical part. Your complaint and problem with your purchased hardware was because you didn't buy an Apple product to begin with! You bought something else to save a few bits. You got burned and blame it on the original manufacturer! Illogical.

Insert FTDI for Apple above and now you understand what this is about.

No, it still isn't illogical at all, because we had absolutely no idea that the SD card reader wasn't an approved Apple product! By the same token (until I hear back from the Danish manufacturer) I have absolutely no way of knowing whether I'm going to brick the £400 ventilation system controller in our house if I plug my laptop into it to do the monthly data download.

My wife did what thousands do, just walked into a camera shop and asked for a card reader with the right plug to fit her iPad and accept the cards from our camera. It's white, looks exactly like an Apple product, the chap in the shop checked it worked with her iPad before she bought it and she went away happy. It was only a few weeks later when the thing got bricked by an Apple update that we (well, me) found out after a lot of internet trawling, that Apple were deliberately preventing third party equipment from working with their products.

To me this is an alien concept, as I've always had PCs (the iPad is the first Apple product we've ever bought) and in that world pretty much anything made for a PC works with a PC, and I'd never, ever, come across the idea that a manufacturer could be so controlling as to stop accessories made by third parties from working before.
 

premelec

Senior Member
Be sure you are wearing genuine Bentley [sp?] gloves and shoes when driving your Bentley auto... :) [I couldn't resist... back to the cave...]
 

rq3

Senior Member
To me this is an alien concept, as I've always had PCs (the iPad is the first Apple product we've ever bought) and in that world pretty much anything made for a PC works with a PC, and I'd never, ever, come across the idea that a manufacturer could be so controlling as to stop accessories made by third parties from working before.
Agreed. My first Apple product was an iPhone 3GS, purchased so that I could run just one specific app. Playing with it, I happened to download Siri, which one could do at the time, and I became rather enamored of it.

Lo and behold, when the iPhone 4 was released (with Siri built in), Apple reached out and removed Siri from my 3GS. This should be patently illegal.

Rip
 

techElder

Well-known member
Again, expecting a manufacturer to support accessories that it has no control over is ... illogical.
 

Haku

Senior Member
Again, expecting a manufacturer to support accessories that it has no control over is ... illogical.
It appears they do have control over those accessories, as demonstrated by the code they put into their new drivers which 'turns off' the chips they didn't make...
 

Jeremy Harris

Senior Member
Again, expecting a manufacturer to support accessories that it has no control over is ... illogical.
OK, so, let's use my PC as an example. It has USB ports, and I can plug all sorts of things into them, most commonly memory sticks and a card reader. Microsoft don't force me to buy memory sticks only from them, I can use any make of stick I want and be pretty damned sure that it'll work, as USB is USB.

Now let's look at Apple. It has a USB port on the side of the iPad, but one that uses a very slim USB connector, the same as the one on one or two other thin USB devices. It comes with a standard USB lead that plugs into this to charge the thing, but which is the wrong way around to connect to a USB SD card reader. So, my wife does an entirely logical thing and goes into a camera store to buy a card reader that accepts our camera cards and has the right sort of slim USB connector to fit the iPad. She (and I, and the camera store owner) had absolutely no way at all of knowing that Apple want us to only buy their specific hardware at this point, as there is nothing anywhere that makes this clear when you buy an iPad. The camera store owner is helpful, unpacks the thing, checks with my wife's iPad that it can read photos from the camera card OK and she goes away happy.

As far as we, or the camera store owner, are concerned we're not breaking any rules or laws and haven't purchased (or, in the case of the camera store owner, sold) anything that was counterfeit or illegal. In fact I checked, and the card reader we bought wasn't illegal or counterfeit, it just wasn't made by Apple. As far as all involved in this transaction were concerned a USB device had been purchased and it worked.

Apple then chose to brick this device a few weeks later, without warning, during an iOS update. They didn't brick it because it was counterfeit. They didn't brick it because they were providing support for it (it's just a USB memory device, so uses open USB standards). They bricked it because it wasn't made by Apple.

That is, to me, an unacceptable practice, and is why I will never, ever buy another Apple product. Had they given a warning, or made it clear that only Apple manufactured USB accessories would work with their products, then that would have been fair enough; we could have chosen to buy the iPad and accept that we had to only ever buy Apple accessories, or buy something else. The fact is that they didn't do this, they just did what FTDI have done an bricked something not made by them when it was plugged in.
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
They bricked it because it wasn't made by Apple.
That is probably not correct. They will more likely have refused to permit the use of the device because it was not certified nor approved for use with the Apple device or Apple software being used.
 

Jeremy Harris

Senior Member
That is probably not correct. They will more likely have refused to permit the use of the device because it was not certified nor approved for use with the Apple device or Apple software being used.
Which amounts to exactly the same thing.

If a manufacturer, arbitrarily and without any form of warning, renders a product bought in good faith, from a responsible retailer who had also acted in good faith, unusable, because they have a wish to force all of their customer base to only buy products from them, then that is, in my view, unethical trading. If the device in question was counterfeit then I can sort of understand it, but it wasn't, it was perfectly legitimate in terms of form and function until Apple deliberately chose to make it non-functional, with no warning.

In our case it left us unable to get photos from our camera on to my wife's iPad for many months (as Apple don't provide any network file transfer functionality with the iPad, so it won't talk to our LAN, other than to connect to the internet). We've got around this by buying a wireless network card reader that comes with a free ap for the iPad that allows photos to be transferred to and from an SD card. Having learned from past experience, we're not not ever doing another iOS update, in case this, too stops working. I could have bought an Apple card reader (far from cheap!) to get around the problem, but they've annoyed both of us so much that we're determined never to ever spend any money with Apple again. The iPads replacement will not be an Apple product, that's for sure. Even if Apple stuff is desirable, neither of us are willing to tolerate being controlled to this degree by a manufacturer.
 

neiltechspec

Senior Member
You could have used iTunes to transfer photo's. Horrendous S/W, but it does work for that.

But, I do agree, Apple can be really annoying from that aspect.
 

Goeytex

Senior Member
1. Any end product manufacturer that purchases components from an unverified supply chain is not acting in good faith. Ignorance is not a valid excuse.

2. Any manufacturer that purchases components from a verified supply chain and somehow end up with counterfeits and uses those counterfeits in a product is not acting in good faith since it is their responsibility to verify, especially in the case of FTDI products that are known to be widely counterfeited.

3. Any manufacturer that outsources product assembly and ships the product to end users without verifying that genuine (specified) components were used is not acting in good faith.
 

Hemi345

Senior Member
Rendering a device inoperable because it's not yours is not ethical FOR THE CONSUMER who UNKNOWINGLY purchases a product with a fake chip. I believe it would be better if FTDI was to detect these devices in a non-destructive way, notify the consumer that the chip is counterfeit and to contact the manufacturer of the device, and then offer some other deterrent such as time-limited use or constant popups. At least the consumer would know what is going on with their device and maybe the manufacturer that is using them would replace it or receive bad publicity.

I read that Sparkfun is currently going through all their products that they don't build themselves to ensure that the FTDI chips are genuine to thwart support calls. Do you think Best Buy, Walmart, etc are going to do the same? Can you imagine the number of product returns these retailers are going to see because of this? Lost hours of CONSUMER time troubleshooting / tech support calls, money involved shipping a product back because it 'just doesn't work'. It's a great thing this destructive driver redaction happened now rather than have it go through the Christmas season. Yikes.

Apple is Apple... unfortunately Jeremy didn't know their asinine practices and found out first hand why I haven't nor will never own one of their products.
 

RexLan

Senior Member
Apple is Apple... unfortunately Jeremy didn't know their asinine practices and found out first hand why I haven't nor will never own one of their products.
Right on ..... and I have never bought an Apple product for this reason and never will. Possibly good stuff but everything is proprietary and very, very limited selection damn little software and $$$. If it were not for cleverly capturing the public schools I believe Apple would be in the tank.
 

techElder

Well-known member
I don't know what planet some of you folks are from, but you clearly didn't grow up in a world dominated by IBM PC clones and etc. How do you dump on one manufacturer of computers that is growing with leaps and bounds without seeing the irony of the IBM PC dominated world of mismatches and resets?

For that, you get the "three finger salute" also known as the CTRL-ALT-DELETE keyboard combination for PC support. <GRIN>
 
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