OT: Counterfeit fuses?

mrburnette

Senior Member
I haven't sent it back yet.
ADDED: The seller (fast2worldwide) is chinese but they post from the UK. I get the impression that the UK warehouse is subcontracted rather than actually owned by the chinese seller. They want the items posted to this UK warehouse.
Personally, had this happened to me, I'd send it back to the UK warehouse and hope the seller also refunds the postage - you have an email in that regard. As I see it, they refunded your money 100% after you complained ... not to comply with their return of merchandize request is likely covered in some of the eBay mega-worded statements.... just easier I think than to have eBay get into the mess with you guys!

Write it off as a less-than-optimum experience.


- Ray
 

Dippy

Moderator
Sorry, but I take vending coutnerfeit (and possinly dangerous) items a bit more seriously.

If there is a specific UK distributor and if they are selling dodgy gear then this MUST be reported.
Trading Stabdards, BBC Watchdog and BBC You & Yours.
We must try our best (within reason) to get rid of this crap - for many reasons.
A refund or binning is almsot turning a blind eye to greedy people.
That's what they rely on.
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
@nick12ab : Speaking personally I think you've opened a can of worms for yourself. I think the best thing to do is to comply with what they want, send it all back. I would send special / recorded delivery so they cannot claim you did not send it back.

You may be able to hold out for them to pay the postage up-front having determined what it will be, or have them arrange to collect it from you at their cost.

Don't leave any feedback, positive nor negative.

With that issue resolved, let trading standards know what happened.
 

mrburnette

Senior Member
Sorry, but I take vending coutnerfeit (and possinly dangerous) items a bit more seriously.

If there is a specific UK distributor and if they are selling dodgy gear then this MUST be reported.
Trading Stabdards, BBC Watchdog and BBC You & Yours.
We must try our best (within reason) to get rid of this crap - for many reasons.
A refund or binning is almsot turning a blind eye to greedy people.
That's what they rely on.
Reporting what you find to authorities for investigation is a correct move, IMO. Not returning the requested device after a complaint and the full-refund of purchase gets into an issue with potentially disruption of the eBay buyer's account. eBay itself even has a dispute protocol. It is a "shoot yourself in the foot" situation. One do not want to have to argue to authorities that they have failed to execute in good faith, which would only distract from the real issue of conterfeit product, the said fuses - which everyone has voiced concern and which everyone wants to have corrected.

I just suspect @nick12ab has stepped into quicksand and the more he struggles, the deeper he will sink. There are lots of assumptions that the fuses are fake, but all we forum members know for certain is that they were not sand-filled. There 'may' be something somewhere in the manufacturing standards/guidelines that allow for non-sand filled devices or the Chinese company that manufactured the fuses may actually be under license for manufacturing the product but claim a bad-batch of mislabeled fuses. International manufacturing and licensing and trademarks are a most complex area.

- Just my opinion, Ray
 

boriz

Senior Member
If you got the item that was described in the listing, you have very little recourse with ebay or paypal. Did the listing say sand filled explicitly? Did it say anything at all about the brand/type/nature of the fuse or it's compliance? I think the refund was automatic and not based upon the merit of your claim. They sell so many, why risk bad feedback for one?

Safety is a separate issue and the best place for advice in that respect is probably Trading Standards. The fact that the item was supplied from within England might mean stricter laws are in effect than if it came straight from China. This may indeed be the reason for the 'send the evidence' afterthought. My advice is to get some proper advice.
 

nick12ab

Senior Member
If you got the item that was described in the listing, you have very little recourse with ebay or paypal. Did the listing say sand filled explicitly? Did it say anything at all about the brand/type/nature of the fuse or it's compliance?
No. However eBay does have a policy on counterfeit goods in that they might ask the buyer to destroy them to get a refund - i.e. blow up the fuses using mains.

Yes, I have reported this to Trading Standards.
 

Dippy

Moderator
Well, you've done the best you can so well done.

Boriz: "Did the listing say sand filled explicitly? Did it say anything at all about the brand/type/nature of the fuse or it's compliance?"
- ummm.... that's NO excuse to get around selling a product within any country which has certain standards.
Have you ever tried selling product in China?
 

SAborn

Senior Member
At any point have the fuse actually been deemed as defective, other than a substituted fuse.
In such a item here, the need for a sand filled ceramic fuse is almost not required and a simple glass fuse could have been used, due to the low current required for the device.
It was not as though the device required a high amp fuse rating that would blow with a huge splat of molten metal, needing to be encased in sand and ceramic.

The more dangerous part i see with this device is the fuse rating use, not so much the fuse used.
Why a 10 amp fuse for a low amp device would be my question.
The lower the amps of the fuse the lesser the splat of molten metal, the lesser the encapsulation required, the lesser the stress applied to the wiring, the quicker it will blow with a fault.

If one considers the fuses in use throughout the world that has foil or wire repairing/replacing the fuse, is a greater concern than a counterfeit fuse i would think.

The other question is, are you being screwed locally on price resulting in looking to offshore suppliers, or where you just being cheap and expecting A1 quality for a cheap price.

There is a lot of cheap stuff from offshore, but its always "buyer beware" and a risk you take when you click the "Buy Now" button.

Its not that i disagree with the advice given or the action taken, more so you knew the risk when you made the purchase, then was unhappy when the device was not up to standard.
 

nick12ab

Senior Member
In such a item here, the need for a sand filled ceramic fuse is almost not required and a simple glass fuse could have been used, due to the low current required for the device.
It was not as though the device required a high amp fuse rating that would blow with a huge splat of molten metal, needing to be encased in sand and ceramic.
However if there was a short in the AC adapter then all the current on offer would go through that fuse. Blowing a fuse with a 12V battery didn't cause any explosion, however at 230V there could be an arc and the sand is designed to suppress that.
 

boriz

Senior Member
Well, you've done the best you can so well done.

Boriz: "Did the listing say sand filled explicitly? Did it say anything at all about the brand/type/nature of the fuse or it's compliance?"
- ummm.... that's NO excuse to get around selling a product within any country which has certain standards.
Have you ever tried selling product in China?
That's besides the point. I was talking about ebay and paypal. Any assumptions you make, not explicit in the listing, are your own problem. I was essentially saying buyer beware. I also said 'Safety is a separate issue'.
 

nick12ab

Senior Member
It's now changed to them offering to refund the cost of replacement fuses after I gave them a good reason not to return the adapters. I agreed to that however they haven't responded so they probably decided to just not bother reply after they noticed that I had already been refunded. The employee who emailed me after the refund had a different name from the one before so the big boss probably got really angry over the possibly accidental refund and "dealt with" the employee.

That's besides the point. I was talking about ebay and paypal. Any assumptions you make, not explicit in the listing, are your own problem. I was essentially saying buyer beware. I also said 'Safety is a separate issue'.
Paypal do have a policy on counterfeit goods including "PayPal may also require you to destroy the item and to provide evidence of its destruction" - woudn't that be fun?
 

nick12ab

Senior Member
I attached a second relay to the PICAXE-based detonator so that the fuse could be detonated using mains voltage. The fuse was detonated in a plug to simulate a real life fuse blow (which would happen in a plug).



That feeble spark was it.



A black mark was left in the plug and a small hole was blasted in each end of the fuse - where the dimple in the end cap is. The plug was a really old one so the results might have been more explosive if it was one of the cheap chinese non-rewireable ones that are part of the cordsets included with the chargers. Also, the circuit breaker was activated (which is rated 60A) so that probably limited the explosion - this video showing a violent explosion may have been set up in order to create the biggest explosion possible.

This experiment does prove that the sand in real fuses is there to prevent the arcing and that it does as the circuit breaker never blows when a genuine fuse blows.

P.S. The relays and PICAXE all survived.
 

mrburnette

Senior Member
@nick12ab:

Excellent experiment. I discounted much of the original concern, but your testing certainly proves that a potential situation exists... especially in an atmosphere that could be flamable due to the use of solvents, gasoline, spray paints, etc. (I often use my garage for such activities as furniture refinishing or spray painting stuff when directed by my wife!) You bring up some real thought-provoking issues... even if a particular country or jurisdiction does not specifically demand a particular line of electrical protection.

- Ray
 

nick12ab

Senior Member
Counterfeit fuses found on the high street

Fake fuses sold at Pound World were shown on the BBC programme Fake Britain.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07tl838

The programme covered the (lack of) sand, current ratings, and even showed the video I linked before.

The problem of fake fuses is still with us and is not limited to dodgy eBay sellers. My advice would be to sacrifice one fuse in any pack you buy even if on the high street - if it contains sand, it is likely to be genuine.
 

fernando_g

Senior Member
Perhaps the reason that the latest North Korea's rocket launch failed, was because the N-Koreans used some fake Chinese components? :D

I know, I know....dumb joke.
 
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