OT: Cheap Chinese ICs

MartinM57

Moderator
As some of you know, my next favourite chip to AVRs and PICAXEs is the MAX7219.

I needed 3 more last week so rather than pay close on GBP33 for 3 from Farnell, who can resist a bargain 5 for GBP5.49 and free delivery from the Far East via the great auction site?

Did they arrive. Yes

Do they work. Err, sort of. Replacing a Farnell procured '7219 in a working circuit, not the first time (they go into Display Test mode (light all segments and dps on all digits) and seemingly ignoring the config commands sent to them soon after startup), but if you power cycle again they do. Switch off for a minute or so and you have to switch on, power cycle again and then they're OK. Strange.

Do the package dimensions match the Maxim datasheet - nope. The end legs are only half legs and are flush with the end of the ceramic package. The Farnell one has full legs at the end and the ceramic package extends beyond them (just like the datasheet says)

Is there printing and an embossed country of manufacture on the bottom of the chip like the Farnell ones. Nope.

Interesting...
 

pha555

Senior Member
Thanks for the info.

For many years, I bought the MAX7219 directly from Maxim in 100s or 250. Suddenly, there were many vendors in Asia offering the same item for 1/2 of what I would pay directly from the vendor in quantity.

This has also been true of the DS18B20.

I suspect there is a bit of dumping of imperfect product.

Its good to know this.

Peter Anderson
 

Dippy

Moderator
Does Dippy have any sympathy for you?
Did you complain to Vendors?
Would there be any point?
Do you know the Chinese for 'sucker'?
Will that make you hesitate about buying from THAT place in future?
(same answers as: Is the Pope Polish?) :eek:

... I'm so pleased you're helping a certain place become No.1 in the World for everything. Certain people in Darfur probably bought their bullets from a similar place. It's called Alibabawhatembargo?.com :rolleyes:

Come on Martin.
NAME & SHAME.
Other people might like to avoid crap too :)
 
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Minifig666

Senior Member
Its a shame that not all products can be trusted, but what you pay is what you get!

If I were you, I'd complain. (But then I do like a good moan now and then!) The worst that can happen is that they will take them back, but if they are defective they might let you keep them! But then its you not me!

On a PICAXEy note, how hard is it to interface these things with a PICAXE? Do they accept 'normal' serial?
 

Dippy

Moderator
It's important to complain or give bad marks.
If people can't be bothered or are too scared then the vendor only gets good marks... NSS.

Mind you, it's not a cheap chip so I can see the attraction (initial) of the Cheapo offering. But, sorry, there is nothing in the World that would encourage me to buy from anonymous vendors overseas.
For 11 quid a chip I'd write some firmware for a PIC and use a SM transistor array. (I haven't read the Data Sheet shock horror :eek: so I'm only guessing).
 

westaust55

Moderator
Thanks for the info.

For many years, I bought the MAX7219 directly from Maxim in 100s or 250. Suddenly, there were many vendors in Asia offering the same item for 1/2 of what I would pay directly from the vendor in quantity.

This has also been true of the DS18B20.

I suspect there is a bit of dumping of imperfect product.

Its good to know this.

Peter Anderson
May not be so much a case of dumping as just plain ;low grade manufacture in the far east. When I was in Schenzhen early this year the locals proudly showed me the their massive electronics factory. They also stated for better quality parts, buy in Hong Kong. Not that I bought electronics in either location -was there in tourist mode with a camera.
 

manuka

Senior Member
The MAX7219 is known to be supply sensitive at start up,with extra capacitors often needed for reliability.

I become weary of "Chinese made" finger pointing, as almost all global hi tech products now have a very high Asian content. A history lesson relates to the fact that ICs have long been finally "assembled" where labour is cheap. Even back in the 1970s labels showing such (then) cheap labour places as Singapore and Ireland were often noted on top US designs. Quirks & difficulties may well arise anywhere in the supply chain-you can't just blame the final source.

FWIW I've wrestled with semiconductors since the 1960s and have had some go belly up as soon as you look at them. Particular offenders were diverse 1980s 555 offerings, the mid 1990s Basic Stamp BS1, and 1970s logic ICs that were apparently ESD prone. Anyone recall the first 1993 era coffee warming Pentiums that were prone to "issues" if ventilation was insufficient?

Often as not fundamental design and production issues are the culprit- witness those suspect DS18B20 that floated around some 5 years ago and "brain dead" 80286 micros from the 1980s. In other fields 1986 Space Shuttle O rings, iPhone 4 antenna,1950s "Comet" metal fatigue and the present Rolls Royce jet engine woes spring to mind...

The real cuplrit may be an outlet offering lower spec. devices at attractive prices,that enthused users grab for pushing technical boundaries. Such dumping may arise when a superior product is close to release.

Dippy: The previous Pope was Polish -the present Pope is German.
 
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Dippy

Moderator
People aren't just referring to Chinese Made.
Of course there are some top quality manufacturers over there.

They also refer to the mega-tonnes iffy stuff shipped/sold cheaply to tight-fisted retailers/end-users all over the world usually via one or two well known selling sites.
Where does most dodgy, dangerous and fake stuff come from? Yup, you got it.


And I have a lot of experience of lower-end engineering machines and tools/cutters/bits made in that neck of the woods. Most of it was the worst quality I have ever seen. Drill bits machined backwards, things way off-centre , physically feeble, voided castings , poor materials and tapers that fitted like a sausage in the Grand Canyon.
You want 'cheapo'? You got it... in more ways than one.


"Dippy: The previous Pope was Polish -the present Pope is German."
- Oh Stan , that was my gag. :)
All the answers to the previous cheeky questions were "NO" and so is the answer to " Is the Pope Polish?)" .....
It was a 'play' on asking a question to which the answer was obviously "Yes" from several years ago.
For years, people would amuse us (apparently) with the witty reply "Is the Pope Polish?" , just like: "Do bears sh** in the woods?".

Anyway, I promised not to moan any more - so enough.:)
 

SAborn

Senior Member
One of the clauses with flee bay is the product must match what you ask for.
The data sheet should be proof enough.

So complain to the vendor.
If that gives no response than complain to ebay.

If you used Paypal (it always pays to) than complain to paypal, as they have a clause that the product must be not defective and what you asked for was supplied.

Paypal will refund your money if you can show the product is not correct.
I have made several claims through Paypal over crap products and Paypal will recover the money from the vendor or have them removed.

They often ask for the product to be returned, i have always quoted the return postage is greater than the product cost and offer to take the product to a place of destruction that is local to myself and refuse to return it.
I have always had the full amount repaid to my account.

Its worth the effort, if not just to save someone else from the hassle.
 

Haku

Senior Member
I dunno, these Chinese eBay sellers, you buy a 5 meter strip of warm white LEDs and they send you the cool white version... and it doesn't use 72 watts @ 12v, more like 30 watts.

And DealExtreme STILL hasn't actually posted my packs of 18 laser keychains I ordered 10 weeks ago after someone mentioned here about them :mad: I know you can wait a bit longer because it's cheaper but this is taking it a bit too far.
 

John West

Senior Member
I have a Chinese-made 1/8" drill bit that's bent in the middle over 1/8" off center. It takes no more than a quick glance to see how obviously bent it is.

Realizing that drill bits are hardened during their manufacture so that any attempt to bend one after the hardening process occurred would in fact break it, I have to believe that this bit was bent before the hardening process ever occurred, and thus went through much of its manufacture already bent - and ignored.

It takes both hands to hold the drill when I run up the speed on it. I've been trying to invent some use for it - perhaps for mixing drinks.

Did I complain? Nope. Because it came along with a few other (good) drill bits in a box with a decently well made 18V cordless drill and charger in a solid case - all for $19.95 US.

Support your local economy as you can, and buy top quality merchandise (for top dollar) as you can afford it. Otherwise, test out small quantities of "cheap" parts before purchasing more.

Let the rest of us know the results.
 

Dippy

Moderator
John: Wise words. Perhaps you could drill oversize holes with it or use it to stir your coffee.
... needless to say I complained about my drillbits and returned them. And then bought UK (PResto) made bits which were perfect and cost only 10% more (even from Farnell!!).

Presto, (most)Dormer, Clarkson and several others which I have forgotten are top quality.
Fortunately our country's (wavering) GDP is not currently dependent on ****** money so I can be blunt (just like their drill bits :) )


Stan: I see what you mean. Good show :)
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
http://www.naturalnews.com/PhotoTour_Energizer_Batteries_2.html

To be fair on that it is debatable on intent to deceive, it does deliver as it claims, but it's a very complicated issue. Cars may often not have the performance or capabilities that looks may suggest, anyone who has opened a Hi-Fi tower unit probably found 99% air and a small circuit board, and I don't think anyone really knows at a glance how loud an amplifier will be from the various ways watts are defined.

People will sometimes be disappointed that they did not get what they expected but is exactly as advertised, others will be very happy with it. Buyers have responsibility in checking what they are purchasing and it's a life-lesson not to judge a book by its cover or the glitzy packaging it comes in.
 

Dippy

Moderator
Absolutely - with a couple of obvious additions...

"Buyers have responsibility in checking what they are purchasing "
- and vendors, wherever in the World, have responsibility to be honest... sadly this doesn't happen and guess where most are based and guess the popular vending mechanism?


I feel that Energizer example is a bit iffy really.
According to the literature:-
1. The D has the same capacity as C
2. They are the same price as the C at Farnell.
3. The packet says 2500mAh clearly in about 14pt text. Same as C size capacity.
Those three things should give some strong clues surely?
So, if the guts are C sized then so be it.
Energizer have been accurate - people have jumped to a wrong conclusion for whatever reason - inlcuding the inability to read or think.
I'm not a nanny unless people have been deceived, but some people enjoy being a victim.


I think the real arguments are:-
1. Can the product do what the Manufacturer's/Vendor's blurb claims?
2. Will the vendor support the warranty?
3. Are any inaccuracies intentional?
4. Is the product fake?
5. Is the product a reject/repackage?

Will Trading Standards in, as a random example China, be helpful?
If you buy from overseas you take the risk. They don't give a hoot beacuse they know that people are skinflints and will carry on buying regardless.

It's your money. Just take care. If it looks too good to be true - then it is.

But, a note to importers in UK (and many other places I assume).
If you are importing and selling fake or dangerous items you will be taken to court , put in jail and rogered senseless by Mr Big in the shower.
 

Pauldesign

Senior Member
anyone who has opened a Hi-Fi tower unit probably found 99% air and a small circuit board,
This business deception reminds me of old school cassette tape equalizers extending to 44KHz, whereby humans can hear only up to 16 KHz which degrades with age and noisy environment.

Maybe for the dogs and cats also to listen to the vibes. :D
 

BeanieBots

Moderator
This business deception reminds me of old school cassette tape equalizers extending to 44KHz, whereby humans can hear only up to 16 KHz which degrades with age and noisy environment.

Maybe for the dogs and cats also to listen to the vibes. :D
You actually require much higher than 44kHz to get 'true' sound.
True, the ear can only receive up to about 20kHz, but it can certainly pick up all the harmonics and beat frequencies generated by higher frequencies.
Try it. Unless your hearing is badly shot, you WILL hear a difference when you cut off the higher frequencies than those you can hear direct.

As for dodgey IC's, this is a real problem for industry.
It's all very well when buying from reputable manufacturers, but increasingly, companies get PCBs manufactured by outsource companies. The pressure on these companies can lead to them sourcing from other outlets. The result is a PCB which has the correct components but might not perform quite as expected in certain circumstances. The only solution is for the PCB BOM to include supplier. This pushes up the price and round we go again.
 
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BeanieBots

Moderator
Absolutley, that's why "when it matters" the supplier and their suppliers in turn needs to be fully audited. A trip to China adds a lot of cost to small quantity products, so what makes the peice parts cheaper, actually results in a more expensive final product:mad:
 

Dippy

Moderator
Yes, a retailer can be a victim.

As BB said, the audit trail should be clear.

And the retailer won't want to be bitten twice. Of course, if he does it repeatedly then he should pay a visit to Mr Big in the showers.:(

The buck stops with the retailer , who is repsonsible for a repair, replacement or refund of a duff thingy. That's the (UK) Law, which I believe was to have been watered down by EU law at some stage.
(Some of those Eastern retailers must have a good laugh at those greedy Western suckers).
 

MartinM57

Moderator
I have put these MAX7219s into a freshly built circuit designed exactly as the Maxim data sheet - and they still only work after being powered up/down and up again. Slightly impractical. Genuine Maxim 7219s work first time every time.

I have sent the seller a carefully worded communication - the immediate response from the system on pressing Send was "This seller is away until 4 January 2011".

I will update you next year. (unless anyone knows the trick for making out-of-spec MAX7219s power up properly first time)
 

Andrew Cowan

Senior Member
Just a note - paypal gives you 45 days from when you paid to make a complaint. I've found that paypal is very strict about counterfeit goods - if the seller doesn't cooperate, file a dispute and paypal should refund you.

Just make sure that you stay within the 45 day window.

Andrew
 

Dippy

Moderator
Meanwhile back in the Real World....

Martin complains to Vendor.
Vendor says it's the way Martin Handled the chips.
(Even if they had other complaints they would stretch the argument until you got fed up)

Martin complains to Paypal, who the put in some long-winded complaint to Vendor.
Vendor: "Obviously Mr M57 mistreated them. I'm a great vendor. My Mum and Andrew Cowan say so." :)

Possible consequences:-
1. Fizzles out. Parties get bored. Martin carries on buying from Ebay. Lessons not learnt.
2. Paypal take action against Vendor. Next week Vendor starts under new name.

And don't forget where Paypal are legally situated in 'Europe'.
They have been extremely tardy with (literally) hundreds of thousands of valid fraudulent/dodgy product and ticket sales.
It has cropped on BBC Radio 4 You and Yours a dozen times over the last 2 years.
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
Going back to a post early in the thread; "I was slightly surprised they worked at all to be honest".

So surprise, hopes, disappointment, original expectations met, into the bin, life carries on :)
 

MartinM57

Moderator
Possible consequences:-
1. Fizzles out. Parties get bored. Martin carries on buying from Ebay. Lessons not learnt.
Not a possible outcome. Martin's experimental purchase of very cheap esoteric chips from China proves what he thought might be the case was actually true. And now I can say that I've been there and I've got the T-shirt. I don't regret trying the experiment.

Maybe I didn't stress enough that it was obviously an "offer to good to be true" and I was (at the time) dubious whether they would work - but it was worth a fiver just to try.

Anyway, all I need to do is put in the user instructions..
"Turning the unit on, and seeing the displays how they should be, is a simple three stage process. Just toggle the power switch on/off/on."

Sorted :D
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
And now I can say that I've been there and I've got the T-shirt. I don't regret trying the experiment.
Absolutely. You don't know until you take the gamble. As long as it's realised it is a gamble and that gamble can be afforded then everything is fine.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes you win 'big time', and sometimes you don't gamble and will never know if you missed a big win or avoided a big loss. There's never any easy answer.
 

Dippy

Moderator
I am also very pleased you tried it Martin.
It's saved the rest of us (except Andrew) wasting money on that Vendor, whoever he/she/it is?
Come on Name and Shame :rolleyes:
 

MartinM57

Moderator
Well I'll be darned.

Despite "being away until 4 Jan 2011" I got an email reply via the famous auction site about 20 minutes after I send my complaint in the early hours of this (UK) morning (didn't check my email until just now)

Hi,
Sorry to hear that !
OK,we will refund the money to you !
I will connect My supplier , ask what's the matter!
Much Appreciate for your understanding.
Please leave Positive feedback with 5 stars for the four 5-Detailed Selling Rating (DSR)!
Thank you very much! Have a good day!


...and GBP5.49 was refunded to my Paypal account pretty soon after.
 

SAborn

Senior Member
See, sometimes it do pay to tell the seller the problem before you tell everyone else.

You may have just saved some other poor lesser skilled person a lot of head scratching over why their project didnt work.

A good out come all the same.
 

premelec

Senior Member
@Martin - surely you can make an 08M and MOSFET to appropriately cycle the power on initial fire up so they work ok... such a bargain... and clearly the seller wants to sell more stuff :) - love that negative feedback threat...
 
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