Sign of the times

Rickharris

Senior Member
From the "huffington Post"
"...Just last year, while researching a book on America's digital illiteracy, I met with the Air Force General then in charge of America's cybercommand. He said he had plenty of new recruits ready and able to operate drones or other virtual fighting machines - but no one capable of programming them, or even interested in learning how. He wasn't even getting recruits who were ready to begin basic programming classes. Meanwhile, he explained to me, colleges in Russia, China, and even Iran were churning out an order of magnitude more programmers than universities in the US. It is only a matter of time, he said - a generation at most - until our military loses its digital superiority."​
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/douglas-rushkoff/programming-literacy_b_745126.html

Sadly this is the way of the world now - everyone wants to play but few - so very few are interested or capable of making the toys.
 

Dippy

Moderator
... you sound like my Dad. But I can imagine it may well be true.

I think I would add India to that list too. They are very big on IT etc.

A while ago I was talking to a Geezer who told me his son was a computer "whizz kid".
I asked for more details.
He said because Little Johnny could get high scores on all the games.
I suggested to him that a "whizz kid" would have written the game and not just got the high scores.
 

graynomad

Senior Member
I've seen that heaps of times, where someone is considered a wizz kid because they beat everyone at Pacman (showing my age there I guess, insert whatever is the latest craze).

I've always been more intersted in creating something from scratch, once it works I lose interest and move on to the next idea.

I suspect most members of these type of forums are similar.
 

John West

Senior Member
I've worked on the development of weapons systems. I wish I hadn't. Unfortunately that's where much of the the development biz is. Every time I hear of another Hellfire missile hitting a wedding party in Afghanistan I cringe inside.

My nephew recently got his degree in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science. He got exactly one job offer - from the military. Now he works on weapons control system development.

A friend of mine got his doctorate in high energy Physics. Then he looked around at job offers and decided his time would be best spent fishing and drinking beer.

Who wants to put their education and creative energy into killing people? Unfortunately - the folks who are developing useful technologies these days are in Southeast Asia where US and European students don't want to move.
 

Jaguarjoe

Senior Member
Between two auto assembly plants at one location there are about 300 electricians. The big Ford sign out in front developed a short circuit. After all 300 electricians could not find the problem they had to call in a retiree to fix it.
How about a master electrician who doesn't know ohm's law.
How about the degreed engineer trying to get a mastic pump running. I tell him, "It looks like you have a bad solenoid." His response, "Solenoid?, what's a solenoid?"
 

Dippy

Moderator
Maybe if he's said "you have a bad electro-magnetic-field-generating-kinetic-load-moverometer" then the other bloke would have understood?
People love 10 word bullshinejargonification rather than a simple little word.:)
 

SAborn

Senior Member
People love 10 word bullshinejargonification rather than a simple little word.:)
It looks more impressive on the bill and they can charge more, as no one else has a clue of what the hell the part was/is.

As for where all the clever engineers are....They are all here on the forum of course.
 

inglewoodpete

Senior Member
..... Meanwhile, he explained to me, colleges in Russia, China, and even Iran were churning out an order of magnitude more programmers than universities in the US. It is only a matter of time, he said - a generation at most - until our military loses its digital superiority
I think its got more to do with the digital age. Traditionally, software (and for that matter, hardware as well) development has been expensive. There were plenty of young people being attracted to the profession. With improved communications, businesses started to look at cheaper options. For Australia, this is often in southern and eastern Asia.

As an analyst/programmer I find I'm being squeezed out of the business: I have to look really hard to get the sort of income that I have been used to. Businesses are getting cheaper solutions in India and the Philipines. Local Australian young people lose interest and choose other, better paying, trades and professions. The big ones at the moment are gas/oil/mining, often manual work but extremely well paid: if I was younger, that's where I'd be. Australia's unemployment rate is currently around half that of the rest of the developed world.

What now happens when a government contract is presented for security or defence software or hardware? Do you look at the cheapest options like development is another country where you might have doubts about security?

No, you look locally, offering the world software and hardware development rates and wonder why you can't fill the contract. And you might shake your head and say that the youth of today just want to play video games. I don't think that's the case at all. I'd love to work on these new technologies but I can't afford to halve my income to do it.
 

boriz

Senior Member
I was being taught programming in middle school, about age 13 or so. We didn’t even have any computers at the start, only got the very expensive CBM PETs later. Eventually I got my own ZX81, then a BBC micro. During the same period, I was being taught various other fascinating ‘engineering’ subjects.

By 16, I could program quite competently in various dialects of BASIC, COBOL and also 6502 assembly language (courtesy of the BBCs inline assembler). I could operate engineering workshop machinery, lathes, milling machines and such. I could cast metal using sand molds and fold/solder tinplate objects. Also had some skills in carpentry. I was competent in engineering technical drawing (the old T-square, compass, pencil and 30/60 ruler type.). And could design and build basic analogue and digital circuitry.

These were all taught as separate lessons, in different workshops, by different ‘expert’ teachers.

As I understand it, most of this stuff is now compressed into a single ‘technology’ lesson.

Who’s idea was that?

@IWP: “...youth of today just want to play video games...”

Can’t say I was much different. But in those days, if you wanted a game, often you would have to write it yourself! Then came Elite on the BBC Micro. And we could all relax in the certain knowledge that we could never write anything that would compare.

[size=+2]‘Braben’!!![/size]
 

Rickharris

Senior Member
Nice idea, Nice and varied skill although of course makes a triode isn't all that difficult once some one made the first one. Now if he had smelted the metal, made the glass from a hand full of sand....

I was also strongly effected by my background. Our garage was an Aladdin's cave of machinery as my Father was a steam engineer on LNER. I grew up in the pre TV days so when TV arrived when I was 5 it was a magical experience I just wanted to know how it worked.

Perhaps wonders are all too common these days and our offspring have become immune to the wonder or they are overwhelmed by the apparent complexity.

As a Technology teacher I often found students who would start to make anything "because it would be rubbish and nowhere near as good as one they bought" the consideration that they learned enough skills to remedy these issues never crossed their minds - Affluent society!

No one seems to have the time to put the models together, to solder the circuits up, to write the software to play the game - where did all that spare time go? TV, Playing the bought computer games?

Perhaps we have made the world too safe and boring so that the only way to experience excitement is in a virtual world, Fight the monsters rather than your school mates! Drive the getaway car and never worry about getting caught.

But hey as long as they leave room for me, (and the rest of us), to practice our weird hobbies and fly our model aeroplanes, make our flashy LED things who cares!! :) - Sometimes they are secretly a bit impressed even if they don't say so!!
 

1968neil

Senior Member
I've worked on the development of weapons systems. I wish I hadn't. Unfortunately that's where much of the the development biz is. Every time I hear of another Hellfire missile hitting a wedding party in Afghanistan I cringe inside.
@ John west,

Same situation here, unfortunately the equipment i worked on was SOLD to the middle eastern side ! So the missiles would be headed our way !
What ever happened to "Inhouse" design for our own protection ?
It's all about the highest bidder and mightly Dollar im afraid !

Neil
 

Rbeckett

Member
John and 1968, the technology I helped perfect was given free of charge to our enemy at the conclusion of the Gulf police err whatever action. We as a country have not bought or built a new main battle tank since 1993, but we are giving then to our former eney as a "gift". That piece of equipment is the most advanced platform of it's kind ever and was expected to be a viable system for another 20-30 years, but since the underlying technology has been compromised and released, counter measures have been developed to defeat it easilly way ahead of the time it should have. So now the race is on to develop a follow on, but the industrial base in the US does not have the capability to produce it. That is the reason the hull for the MRAP is made in Israel, and that has also been compromised early and is currently being replaced as we speak It's a sad commentary on what, who and where our priorities really are. Sorry for the rant...
Bob
 

boriz

Senior Member
Get ‘em fighting each other, then sell arms to both sides. It’s win win win. We make a huge profit. They keep their population down. And any natural resources they have will not be getting properly exploited in the mean time. (Until WE move in later to exploit it for them). It’s a good plan. It has worked very well so far.
 

inglewoodpete

Senior Member
I think it still comes down to the almighty dollar (or pound or euro). Europe has the skills if it values those skills. If it doesn't, those skills will go to another industry. It's simple, really.

Speaking personally, if there were 2 planes on the tarmac ....
 

Dippy

Moderator
I think you should remember also that 'where' something is made is often political.

The USA for sure has the 'capability' but the link between USA and Israel is very solid.

Eurofighter... we all know when that was originally due into service.
But, let's build wings here and tails there and glue it all together somewhere else.
Airbus ditto.
Stormshadow? (Please Google and then be an expert).
Keeps all those Euro Governments happy even if it trebles the costs and delays.

I think you'll find that each country still has the small scale specialist fields of exertise intact.
There's certainly still a lot of interaction between US and UK and France at certain levels.
And I know that the US was not happy with some of the sell-offs by UK over the last few years. (I can't blame them).

But I certainly get the drift re general expertise.
I just wish I knew how accurate the Newspapers are ;)

Could it be down to motivation?
It's easier to play with your Wii than study.
It's easier to cut'n'paste from Forums than listen to teachers and read books and learn.
It's easier to go to Uni and study meeja studies than Physics, Engineering or Maths.
And how much can you earn if all the R&D and manufacture is somewhere else?

Hey, Boriz, don't worry too much old chum.
In a few years time the only Country that will be doing the exploiting will be the same Country that you have helped build-up by buying all those cheap goods... their Empire is coming on nicely.
I bet you hate Commercial Banks and Bankers too :)

Oh, and GSK are moving their R&D to China... why's that?
GSK = Glaxo Smithkline
 

manuka

Senior Member
I'm really past buying an argument (but could wax lyrical about youngsters skills & training- or lack of...), but since country shootouts have emerged it may be worth mentioning a few facts to help keep things in perspective.

From a NZ "down under" viewpoint, a country's population, economic & historical clout can often be keenly appreciated, as almost EVERYONE is bigger than us! Some countries punch well above their weight (Singapore especially),and others have been hampered by policies, but traditional top dog nations should not assume they have a continued right to the role. History is festooned with the "furniture being rearranged" and the rise & fall of empires...

It's probably worth pondering that centuries of Europe's dominating influence in culture, economics and technology may be most threatened simply from the regions fall in population. Those of you in such lands may want to park your keyboards and instead chill the champagne, dim the lights & put on some soft music.

NZ ~ 4½ million population
Singapore ~ 5 million
UK ~ 62 million
Brazil ~ 200 million (& worlds 8th largest economy by nominal GDP)
Indonesia ~ 250 million
USA ~ 310 million
Europe ~ 730 million (& falling...)
Africa ~ 1000 million (& surging)
India ~ 1200 million
China ~ 1400 million
 
Last edited:

Dippy

Moderator
Are we off at another tangent? Excellent.
I don't quite understand the drift or what you mean by "shootout" Stan, sorry.

Are you saying 'success' is related to population trends?

If so, is there really any genuine 'mileage' in that?
Or is it just a coincidental trend that prompts bored statisticians to write a load of feaces, sorry, I mean theses?

I can think of countries where the infant mortality is sadly very high and therefore nature dicates higher birth rates.
Then when outside countries come in with Aid and medicines the mortality is reduced but the birth rate remains high - hence population surge. Ditto with certain mass-diseases.
The change or movement of a religious or tradition system can also affect population over the years.
Countries with generous social benefits and (all too) easy access can also have cycles of population change (e.g. UK).
And, no doubt soon, climate and resources will cause population movements too. Water wars will be with us soon.
Changes in a country's politics can have a huge change. Imagine if China had an NHS and minimum wage...

Yes, many people move to where the money is for sure, but is that enough over and above all other trends?

So, until proven, I'll leave my Bollinger unopened and listen to the Prodigy, Killers and Muse if that's OK. :)

Gosh, a complex World. I'll leave the Forum to sort it out - I'm sure we can make a difference (NOT!). :)
 

fernando_g

Senior Member
My two yen on the subject:
Although everything that has been discussed is completely correct, it is also true that the technology bar -aka "learning how does this gadget works"- has been raised substantially.

Case in point; I remember distincly checking with a dual scope the operation of a diode clamp (DC-restorer). I still see the analog video waveform prior to the clamp shifting its DC level up and down depending on the white content, whereas after the clamp it would remain very steady.

Very enlightening experience about a very simple circuit block!!

Now, attempt a similar feat with a MPEG2 or MPEG4 video stream, coming out from 208 pin LQFP or BGA package....
 

techElder

Well-known member
It takes so much "technology" to just barely get to the point of "experimenting" that most new techs are disheartened early.

Simple troubleshooting of final products is usually dictated by the manufacturers that produce them, so new techs are only "trained" to the level set by what they are working with.

Before it gets interesting to them, the day is over and it's home to the missus. :D
 

Rickharris

Senior Member
I don't know the periodical in question but the Telegraph quotes the CEO of BA so I guess its fairly reliable in so far as the "news" papers ever are. It certainly maps with my experiences at school the kids attitude to practical subjects
 

fernando_g

Senior Member
Thanks for the video. I used to build CRT's for HP scopes. Brings back memories.

Ever "flash" a getter?
I used to work for GTE Sylvania, which made B&W and Color TV CRTs.
So yes, I did flash a getter. Purplish hue, if I remember properly, while all the barium was being deposited on the internal glass walls
 

knight

Member
I'm a ham radio operator, a keen programmer (comp science degree major) and play with electronics in my spare time.

I have endevored to build my own transmitters, baluns, etc. because i think that learning how it all works is very important. But something my father said once has always stuck with me.

He was talking about how we are losing skills in basic electronics and so forth, back when he was first into ham radio he would take apart his TX if it stopped working, identify the fried component and fix it, after all, back in those days every piece of kit he used in his shack was sold with the circuit diagram for it.

Now you take it apart and all you see are micros, you have to send it back to the shop to get it fixed, because either one of the micro's is gone or you have no idea what the circuit does because the micro has propriety code on it. And you don't get a circuit diagram included with the device anymore.

*shrugs* maybe i'm wrong but that i believe has at least something to do with it. altho maybe it is a chicken and the egg problem...
 

Dippy

Moderator
I think you are right, though this Forum does seem to do more 'tutoring' than other Forums I've used. That's good, except when certain people just take away cut'n'paste solutions for their homework.

I feel that if you don't learn some basics then you'll struggle when looking at designs.

And this applies to many aspects of life too.

If you don't have some car-basics you don't know if your garage is ripping you off.
Well, you'll know you're being ripped-off, but by how much? :)

The roof on your house leaks. Tradesman "It's your ceramic flange interociter diverter tile Squire, that'll be 5 Grand to replace."
Whereas it may be a bit of flashing needs fixing for a n'undred or two.

And to have to cry for help at every trivial problem can be awkward and/or expensive. (A bit pathetic really).

I was trying design with a radio module the other day which required antenna output matching and balun.
Boy, did I have to do some heavy reading up to understand it.

Or, maybe I could have posed the question here, sat back , and let someone else do the reading...?
Is that delegation or laziness? ;)
 

Rickharris

Senior Member
You need to get a long way down the track to even be able to recognise that there is a microcontroller involved - (although its a good bet these days) - Few Young people are interested in how things work, their lives have become wrapped up in What things do.

It would be interesting to see what the user age profile is for technical web sites like How stuff works - I bet its 35+ for the most part.

My youthful days were filled with "playing" in the shed and garage, in the house with Meccano and Phillips electronic kits. My young adolescence in rebuilding various old cars I possessed, (or perhaps they possessed me).

My mature life in electronics and computing and later teaching - In all of this time I have had a burning desire to know what is inside the box even if I don't always understand it. - and to design and make a lot of fun projects to play with - often things I could never have afforded otherwise.
 

manuka

Senior Member
A man after my own heart,with my childhood colonial isolation a further motivation! One really focused on the technology when bipolar transistors cost 10 bob EACH (~2 hours youthful wages in the early 1960s) & ordering involved a 6-7 weeks+ round trip from the UK...
 

Rickharris

Senior Member
A man after my own heart,with my childhood colonial isolation a further motivation! One really focused on the technology when bipolar transistors cost 10 bob EACH (~2 hours youthful wages in the early 1960s) & ordering involved a 6-7 weeks+ round trip from the UK...
Pooh when I was young we couldn't afford BIPOLAR transistors we had to make do with diodes!
 

jaka

Member
Rick

Diodes, what are they. Piece of germanium and coils wound on varnished toilet rolls was all I had . Variable cap was from a dead 405 line tv.

"Those were the days when we talked about the past"

Jim
 

John West

Senior Member
When I was young they weren't called "bipolar" transistors. They were still called "manic/depressive" transistors. :D

-----

But in all honesty - when I first learned about about capacitors they weren't even called capacitors. The books I was reading called them "condensers." We've come a long way since then.

Of course - I learned basic electronics in the tube (valve) era. And now I see that HiFi at least has (to a degree) gone back to those days. I've always heard that most aspects of human culture recycle every 20 to 30 years - but for technology that seems for some reason ridiculous.
 
Last edited:

geoff07

Senior Member
You had toilet rolls! you were lucky - all we had was a cardboard box in't middle o' road to live in, with nowt to eat but gravel (spoken in a northern English voice).

But you probably have to be old to recognise this (Monty Python, early seventies)
 

jaka

Member
John

Dead right, I nearly called them condensers but I thought no one would know what I was talking about.

Geoff

I am old. I helped Marconi erect his aerials on the Lizard.

Jim
 
Last edited:

mikek

Member
I'm surprised no one has mentioned poking around with a "cat's whisker" on a hunk of semiconducting rock.
 

jaka

Member
Mikek.

Yes I did. What do you think the piece of geramium was for.

Stuck it in a piece of putty and wiggled a piece springey wire about untill you could get radio Moscow or St Johns, on a good day, from the UK.

Jim
 
Top