Can you clone a PICaxe ?

Hi All,

I know that it is not possible to upload a PICaxe using Rev-Ed tools, but could a nefarious person use some other tools to upload a dump of the full memory, then clone the whole thing to a blank PIC ?.

Thanks,

Buzby

Edit : I don't want to do this, just want to know how un-copiable my device will be. )

In simple terms no.

Without being an alarmist, it may not be totally impossible (just read the Microchip disclaimer in their datasheets on PIC chip security), but it would take a lot of experience/knowledge, research and thus potentially $'s to try and clone a PICAXE.

I don't know how safe it is.
I DO know that protected code is impossible to read on the 3 hardware programmers I have.
(you can set 'protection' for parts of a PIC memory to -hopefully- prevent it being read bck out)

Even Microchip have a caveat in their code protection claims... probably to cover their backsides.

If I were you I wouldn't even worry about it unless you have done something earth shattering.
In some cases it's easier for 'nefarious' types to write code to duplicate the functionality - reverse engineer.

Thanks for that, it looks like my code will be safe !.

My project has a very close-knit small market, and they are generally not very technical, but there are a few electronics wizards among them. I don't want to sell one item then find it's been cloned ten times.

If the PICaxe system sets the 'protection' bit then thats good enough for me.

As you say, sometimes it's easier to (a) roll-you-own, or (b) buy the real thing, than try to copy the original.

...and unless you've told everyone it's a PICAXE, removing the Microchip lettering from the chip so that it becomes an anonymous 8/14/18/28/40 pin chip adds another barrier to being compromised.

You can read the code off them quite easily. You'll need a £20,000 microscope and about 6 months, but apparently it is possible. I haven't tried...

few electronics wizards among them

Click to expand...

Do you know how many of them have large budgets and lots of free time?

A

There's no such thing as impenetrable security, only barriers to slow people down, frustrate them, cause them to give up. Security only has to extend beyond willingness to put effort into breaking that security.

I would say that taking any PICAXE with a program in it and cloning it to a blank PICmicro would be far beyond most people's skills or budget.

So, it looks like PICaxe code is out of reach of just about anybody except serious hardware hackers who have the means to physically dismantle the IC, then probe the running chip with an electron microscope. Good !.

Regarding scrubbing off the lettering, I'm fairly sure a serious hardware hacker would try pulsing the serial-in pin, and look for the characteristic PICaxe reponse on serial-out. This trick has been mentioned in this forum before as a method of telling the difference between a PICaxe and a PICmicro. ( Using 'disconnect' would at least slow him down a bit. )

( One ingenious software protection method I know of is used in some 1-wire or iButton devices. If an attempt is made to retrieve data from a protected area, the chip does not give an error response, but returns some dummy data, which looks like some kind of real data. The attacker can't tell if the chip is protected or not, so he doesn't know if his results are dummy or not. )

As hippy says, theres no such thing as impenetrable security, just an increasing number of progressivley difficult barriers to get over. It's usually not worth the effort.

Thanks,

Buzby.

Given the difficulty of cloning it is FAR more likely your electronic experts would copy the functionality - reverse engineering is not as difficult.

Knowing it can be done and what the inputs and outputs are is half the problem.

I think it's far more likely that people would try to reverse engineer and copy the functionality.

After all, a high percentage of people posting here are trying to do that themselves huh

The Picaxe chips all have the code protection set. Reading it with a PIC programmer yields all zeros. No way to simply read the memory contents and burn it on a blank PIC. To the best of my knowledge there is no easy, cheap method around Microchip's copy protection for all recent device types. It CAN be done, but needs capability to non-destructively de-package the chip, and readout uses very advanced and expensive instrumentation like a scanning electron microscope. There are companies offering to do that for a (steep!) fee, of course only for customers looking to retrieve firmware they have lost the source for If your product serves a multi-million-dollar market or is crucial to a whole country's security I'd be concerned, but not for something that sells a few hundred our thousand pieces in a hobby market. As mentioned by others it would usually be far easier to just duplicate functionality.

MartinM57 said:

...and unless you've told everyone it's a PICAXE, removing the Microchip lettering from the chip so that it becomes an anonymous 8/14/18/28/40 pin chip adds another barrier to being compromised.

Click to expand...

What is the best chemical for removing the lettering?

Dippy said:

I think it's far more likely that people would try to reverse engineer and copy the functionality.

After all, a high percentage of people posting here are trying to do that themselves huh

Click to expand...

Very true Dippy.

X-box controllers are a prime example.

Maybe if a few more people posted on Instructables with more details rather than a video clip saying "look how good I am" but not details then there would be fewer questions here.

wapo54001 said:

What is the best chemical for removing the lettering?

Click to expand...

Silicon carbide, aluminium oxide, alumina-zirconia, chromium oxide, emery, or similar in 200 to 400 grit

aka sand/emery paper

"There's no such thing as impenetrable security"

A wheeler-dealer friend of mine managed to get hold of a couple of very heavy, very serious safes, with electronic keypad codes. Normally they would be expensive, but these were cheap because the codes were unknown, (but the safes were open). He figured he could use them for something. Maybe storage, maybe weigh them in for scrap.

He had a few bashes at guessing the codes, then decided to just remove the plastic keypad (easily done). Underneath he found two wires disappearing into the safe mechanism. By simply pressing the wires to the terminals of a 9v PP3 battery, the safe lock would operate!

Most security is psychological.

wapo54001 said:

What is the best chemical for removing the lettering?

Click to expand...

I have read somewhere that rubbing a small amount of sugar on the lettering using a damp cloth works well and leaves no scuff marks.

Why is it that there is always something you have read somewhere but can never remember where? Is there a word for this?

boriz said:

Most security is psychological.

Click to expand...

In other words, locks only keep out the honest people ;-)

John

"Most security is psychological."

In that case I shall put a photo of Sigmund Freud on my shed with the caption:
"Please keep out as any attempts to enter are merely an irrational extension of childhood sexual frustrations based on a deep seated Oedipus complex and require you to seek psychiatric treatment before your burglarious attempt. My consultancy in Harley Street charges a flat rate of £400 per hour and results are not guaranteed. Please phone for an appointment."

Yup, that should keep the fuggers out!

Why is it that there is always something you have read somewhere but can never remember where? Is there a word for this?

Click to expand...

In my case the words are "it's an age thing"

R.

Do we use demerara sugar or just plain castor?
Bit early fo April Fool's isn't it?

My house does not need to be more secure than my neighbours house. It just needs to seem that way to a burglar. Like the old joke. I don’t need to run faster than the bear, just faster than you.

Since I have lived here, there have been at least 30 or so burglaries on this estate alone. More on adjacent estates. The houses on both sides of me were burgled more than once. I don’t have an alarm, I have the same doors/windows as everyone else, I have no apparent security at all, yet I have not been burgled. Chance maybe?

I use a couple of very simple psychological techniques, that’s all. There is no scientific proof that it’s working. But I’m more than happy with the apparent results. (No I am not the burglar!)

I used some impromptu psychology on a traffic cop once and escaped a penalty. I was stopped for a ‘vehicle check’. A really bad time for it to happen as my MOT and TAX had both simultaneously just lapsed. I quickly came up with a plan.

I could not afford to get a ‘produce documents’ ticket, so I reasoned that if told him I had the documents with me, he would have to check them there and then. I’m not very tidy and my glovebox was stuffed with various old documents and letters. I simply grabbed a handful of irrelevant documents and hid my insurance details among them.

We must have spent at least five minutes with them spread on the bonnet of his car, ‘searching’ for my vehicle documents. I could clearly see them, and I could clearly see him losing patience, but needed him to discover them. Eventually, he found the insurance document and impatiently said “Well that’s the important one.” And let me on my way. It worked precisely as I had planned. Chance maybe?

I was once caught sneaking into a rear entrance of Glastonbury abbey. It’s a tourist attraction and you normally need to pay to get into the grounds. Fortunately the grounds back onto a large house which has a short drive to a main road. I was passing through the gate onto the abbey grounds when a very prim and proper lady came through the other way. She looked down her nose at me (Well I had been camping for a few days) and asked me just what I thought I was doing. With an air of absolute confidence, I held up my old SLR camera (with a big lens) and said “Photographer to the Gentry”. Looking slightly nonplussed, she stood aside and I boldly strode past her as though I owned the place.

I have other examples, but you get the idea. A little psychology can go a long way.

"Chance maybe?"
Maybe.
Or maybe a lazy copper as he could have run your number plate... then the story would have been different
So maybe just lucky.

Has anyone checked boriz' belt for a light saber?
Perhaps the Force was with him ;-)

John

Hmm, not lucky Boriz was, the force....Mediclorean count is high indeed

(all said in a Yoda voice!!)

boriz said:

I was once caught sneaking into a rear entrance of Glastonbury abbey. It’s a tourist attraction and you normally need to pay to get into the grounds. Fortunately the grounds back onto a large house which has a short drive to a main road. I was passing through the gate onto the abbey grounds when a very prim and proper lady came through the other way. She looked down her nose at me (Well I had been camping for a few days) and asked me just what I thought I was doing. With an air of absolute confidence, I held up my old SLR camera (with a big lens) and said “Photographer to the Gentry”. Looking slightly nonplussed, she stood aside and I boldly strode past her as though I owned the place.

Click to expand...

This reminds me of a quote from a TV show I once saw: "A hardhat, a clipboard, and a confident wave can get you through just about any security gate."

Oh, and the subject of this thread reminded me of this:

http://www.fpgb.org/?p=34

It took 10 years for someone to crack the Nintendo Color Gameboy Boot ROM. Not bad, Nintendo!

Seems the Playstation 3 has also been cracked ...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/25/playstation_cracked_wide_open/

The advantage I see in such activity is not so much illegal or unlicensed game playing but being able to run Linux or other software to repurpose devices, especially when they become 'throwaway' in the future.

It's a shame that there's such great kit out there which is single-purpose and locked-down to not do anything else. It would be nice if manufacturers provided a 'magic key' which unlocked such devices in a couple of years when they are old hat in their field but usable otherwise. Perfectly old, good but inaccessible stuff just heads for landfill when it's past its intended life.

Adding such a 'magic key' isn't necessarily leaving a window open and a risk to security; if it takes three years to have cracked the PS3 it would probably have taken the same to reveal what that key was.