Chipaxe?
- Thread starter rgooge
- Start date
ChipAxe in this month's Nuts and Volts
I saw this in N&V last Saturday. But the ChipAxe site was almost barren. No products. I dismissed it.
The subscriber link to the article is:
http://nutsvolts.texterity.com/nutsvolts/200911/?sub_id=Bi8KsbEdLv6Ss#pg56
In case you cannot get in, I have attached a screen shot of the 1st page of the article (copyright T & L Publications).
Of interest is this line in the 1st paragraph:
---"Because the chip is open source, you don't need to purchase a pre-programmed chip."---
Interesting.
Terry
I saw this in N&V last Saturday. But the ChipAxe site was almost barren. No products. I dismissed it.
The subscriber link to the article is:
http://nutsvolts.texterity.com/nutsvolts/200911/?sub_id=Bi8KsbEdLv6Ss#pg56
In case you cannot get in, I have attached a screen shot of the 1st page of the article (copyright T & L Publications).
Of interest is this line in the 1st paragraph:
---"Because the chip is open source, you don't need to purchase a pre-programmed chip."---
Interesting.
Terry
fritz42_male
Senior Member
Oh wow! At those prices I'll definitely switch - NOT!
Its "Open Source" claim seems little more than playing to crowd. It's basically a blank PICmicro on a PCB, uses a standard Microchip-style ICSP programmer and can use any tools which would be used to develop native code for a PICmicro. So more in competition with the numerous companies which supply similar systems than PICAXE with its cross-platform integrated development environment which doesn't require messing around trying to get various development tools to work together.
I don't get it.
I realise saying something is "Open Source" is very trendy and sounds really "cool" and "awesome" , but what is CHipAXE?
Apart from apparently 'borrowing' part of a name, it seems to be a trial version of readily-available compiler plus a low-cost clone (inside natty yellow heatshrink) of a well-known hardware programmer.
Quotes:
"PICBASIC PRO Compiler (sample version)"
"Clone of Microchip PICkit2 (5v only)"
I doubt if there is anything "Open Source" about PicBasic compiler - I believe MELabs are the authors, so ask them.
So what is "Chipaxe"?
Putting trial compiler+programmer together into a box plus a little PCB .
I should add at this stage that programming using a true compiler is much more difficult for Newbies.
There is a lot more to do, a lot more to learn and WILL require vigorous reading of PIC Micro Data Sheets.
PICAXE BASIC does a lot of the hard work for you.
When the PICBasic Pro trial runs out, what do you do?
1. Part with >£100 for the full PicBascic Pro
2. Put it into a dusty drawer.
It's obviously someone's brain-wave to market a product - so I wish them the best of luck. But I would double-check the status of the compiler. If it is time-trial, or limited functionality, then you may have to part with a lot more cash later.
And quite honestly, anyone struggling with PICAXE BASIC should forget any compiler.
Think you're smart enough? Tell me what PIC TRIS is without Googling.
I'm not sure whether Rev-Ed will be cross or flattered by the "AXE" content of the name ?
I realise saying something is "Open Source" is very trendy and sounds really "cool" and "awesome" , but what is CHipAXE?
Apart from apparently 'borrowing' part of a name, it seems to be a trial version of readily-available compiler plus a low-cost clone (inside natty yellow heatshrink) of a well-known hardware programmer.
Quotes:
"PICBASIC PRO Compiler (sample version)"
"Clone of Microchip PICkit2 (5v only)"
I doubt if there is anything "Open Source" about PicBasic compiler - I believe MELabs are the authors, so ask them.
So what is "Chipaxe"?
Putting trial compiler+programmer together into a box plus a little PCB .
I should add at this stage that programming using a true compiler is much more difficult for Newbies.
There is a lot more to do, a lot more to learn and WILL require vigorous reading of PIC Micro Data Sheets.
PICAXE BASIC does a lot of the hard work for you.
When the PICBasic Pro trial runs out, what do you do?
1. Part with >£100 for the full PicBascic Pro
2. Put it into a dusty drawer.
It's obviously someone's brain-wave to market a product - so I wish them the best of luck. But I would double-check the status of the compiler. If it is time-trial, or limited functionality, then you may have to part with a lot more cash later.
And quite honestly, anyone struggling with PICAXE BASIC should forget any compiler.
Think you're smart enough? Tell me what PIC TRIS is without Googling.
I'm not sure whether Rev-Ed will be cross or flattered by the "AXE" content of the name ?
"So more in competition with the numerous companies which supply similar systems than PICAXE with its cross-platform integrated development environment which doesn't require messing around trying to get various development tools to work together." How very true Hippy. The PICAXE is much easer to get up and running than say, BASCOM Basic or PIC Basic Pro.
You're joking - right?
Probably more for RevEd to get an indication of their huge support for the products they've created. The Chippick(!) or whatever it's called doesn't stand up to the original Axe as others have stated!
fernando_g
Senior Member
Imitation is the sincerest -and should I add, most blatant- form of flattery.
Devil's avocado - but PICAXE / Rev-Ed were probably a small company trying something a little different at one time too. There were probably a few PICers and others who scoffed too. PICAXE? They've just taken the name PIC and slapped AXE on the end LOL.
If CHIPAXE - heaven forbid - manage to offer something appealing... anyway, let's just "watch this space".
That said, yes, I love my 20X2s
If CHIPAXE - heaven forbid - manage to offer something appealing... anyway, let's just "watch this space".
That said, yes, I love my 20X2s
The problem is that the Chipaxe isn't really "trying something different" other than - as far as I can see - bundling a trial version of a third party compiler (i.e. they didn't put any effort there) with a ripped-off, poor quality clone of the original Microchip programmer (i.e. not much merit here either) and a almost-ripped-off name (which I doubt has been licences from Microchip, unlike the "Picaxe" label) and try to make it pass ass the latest and greatest invention. Compare this to the Picaxe which managed to recreate the functionality of the expensive Basic stamp on a bare PIC by clever programming - lots of original invention here, much more than just a name and some marketing.
womai - I have no interest in them, but how can you say that the uchip clone is "poor quality?" I figure microchip made the circuit diagram public so it would be cloned, and there are several clones already available. If it meets the micro spec and has their upgradable firmware that's all one needs . . .
The critique I would make is that they claim open-source programming and I don't see a link to the user manual or program editor . . .
Once upon a time, someone looked at the ridiculously expensive (but fun toy) of the Basic Stamp and copied the fundamental idea and the cheap picaxe was born.
The critique I would make is that they claim open-source programming and I don't see a link to the user manual or program editor . . .
Once upon a time, someone looked at the ridiculously expensive (but fun toy) of the Basic Stamp and copied the fundamental idea and the cheap picaxe was born.
Look at the picture on their website: A PCB wrapped into cheap, badly fitting heatshrink instead of an enclosure with the outline of some of the components sticking out - not a model of reliabiliy. Every time you insert the programmer into the PC's USB slot you exert force directly onto the components on the board.
A cheap flatband cable - likely to break after a number of bends - ending in yet another piece of cheap heatshrink holding the connector. How many bends before the solder joints between cable and end connector (or between the cable and the board) will break because there is no strain relieve whatsoever?
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He loves it really.
Stan has been using flat cable for years without a problem - and judging by his photos his flat cable has been flexed a zillion times
However, I must agree with Wolfy that it does look feeble.
I think putting some fresh cable on for the 'photo shoot' would have been a good idea.
So, what's the concensus then chaps?
A hit or a miss?
(And does our opinion matter anyway? )
Stan has been using flat cable for years without a problem - and judging by his photos his flat cable has been flexed a zillion times
However, I must agree with Wolfy that it does look feeble.
I think putting some fresh cable on for the 'photo shoot' would have been a good idea.
So, what's the concensus then chaps?
A hit or a miss?
(And does our opinion matter anyway?
)
Difficult to entirely judge the quality without seeing one and looking at the circuit diagram. It's certainly not as well packaged as the official Microchip version and when it comes to "clones" not all are created equally.
Some clones skimp on components and their quality to save cost which means they can be less robust than official product and may not support all chips or functionality that the official product does or will later offer. I've seen clones which didn't fit any Eeprom as it wasn't used, now it is. Most don't use the official voltage generator circuit to save costs so who knows what problems they may have in store.
If it's built with the same and same quality components as the official version, with the same standard of construction, testing and quality control as Microchip provide it should be of comparable quality.
Most things are evolutionary rather than revolutionary and the idea of embedded firmware interpreters goes back to the Intel 8502, possibly further, and may even include some of the early 'size of a warehouse' computers. Many pre-microprocessor mainframes used microcode interpreters which actually execute what we'd see as it's native instruction set, so the idea isn't recent. With the rapid development of technology, introduction of microprocessors, microcontrollers, we've now ended up with the single chip solution of the PICAXE.
I'm not sure who gets the credit for setting everyone on the path of embedded firmware interpreters. Somewhere there's probably such a design by DaVinci built entirely from wood hiding somewhere ;-)
Although I don’t think the Chipaxe represents much of a threat to PICAXE sales, there is sure to be increasing competition in the future, and Rev-Ed therefore need to market their product more aggressively. They really need to make more use of distributors like SparkFun Electronics. For example their web site ( www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?pmode=new_products ) has just introduced a range of Basic Stamp kits under New Products (!!!), whilst the PICAXE hardly ever gets a mention. One way to improve this situation would be for Rev-Ed to supply example code to support the excellent range of sensors and other devices that SparkFun stock, plus providing materials on projects and applications. I know it takes time and money but the NEXTAXE could arrive at any moment.
I don’t see what the fuss is about. Like they say on the first page “...CHIPAXE uses off the shelf low cost PIC micros…”. So all they are selling is a programmer. Sure, it’s got a little extension to allow the chip to be programmed ‘in circuit’ on any prototyping board, but it’s just a variation on the same theme as THIS for example.
Don’t get me wrong. I think it’s a neat idea. Just nothing whatsoever to do with Picaxe or any other firmware-included-boostrap-type PIC programming system.
Don’t get me wrong. I think it’s a neat idea. Just nothing whatsoever to do with Picaxe or any other firmware-included-boostrap-type PIC programming system.
slimplynth
Senior Member
Is this Dragon's Den?
...No forum support and for that reason, i'm oot!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf4gdQqGLvE
...No forum support and for that reason, i'm oot!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf4gdQqGLvE
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Well, that explains a lot.
As for quality of construction and ruggedness . . . depends a lot on what one expects to pay versus how rugged and long lasting it has to be. All engineering is matter of compromise. or stated differently: "Every solution contains the seeds of other problems"
If I expect a wire to break because of flexing - I give it a strain relief or just hit it with some hot melt adhesive. If it has to last and flex forever I use braid or test probe wire. A programmer though? Maybe a zif socket would be nice.
"...depends a lot on what one expects to pay versus how rugged and long lasting it has to be."
- so true.
I'm starting to feel sorry for Mr ChipAxe.
Probably some guy trying to start a business from home.
A limited budget probably precludes injection mouldings.
- And probably marketing it before it is quite ready to gather info about interest.
We are all guilty of expecting Rolls-Royce quality at Tata prices.
PICKIT are inexpensive and terrific value, but check out the connector at the PIC end.
A simple low-cost SIL 0.1" pitch socket - a bit like a Harwin.
How many insertions are they rated for?
Unless handled by a Neanderthal they will last a lot longer of course - but I don't hear any whinging about "what a cheap old connector".
Many programmers have add-on boards which take the beating ; including ZIF sockets which are NOT cheap. But, no doubt, people will expect a ZIF for 10p.
Or you can make your own add-on which can easily be replaced if it gets damaged.
It's no competition for PICAXE so the collective knickers can stay dry .
But this is good fun so let's keep it running...
- so true.
I'm starting to feel sorry for Mr ChipAxe.
Probably some guy trying to start a business from home.
A limited budget probably precludes injection mouldings.
- And probably marketing it before it is quite ready to gather info about interest.
We are all guilty of expecting Rolls-Royce quality at Tata prices.
PICKIT are inexpensive and terrific value, but check out the connector at the PIC end.
A simple low-cost SIL 0.1" pitch socket - a bit like a Harwin.
How many insertions are they rated for?
Unless handled by a Neanderthal they will last a lot longer of course - but I don't hear any whinging about "what a cheap old connector".
Many programmers have add-on boards which take the beating ; including ZIF sockets which are NOT cheap. But, no doubt, people will expect a ZIF for 10p.
Or you can make your own add-on which can easily be replaced if it gets damaged.
It's no competition for PICAXE so the collective knickers can stay dry
.But this is good fun so let's keep it running...
I don't think there's any such thing as a perfect product in any objective sense, and we all have our own preferences and subjective views.
For me, I've had problems with the micro-USB connector on the Microchip programmer or supplied cable not being reliable and its software was a real problem as it demanded a screen size greater than my monitor supported thus somewhat unusable in those circumstances.
One thing with comparing any product with another is that they may be "alternatives" but not necessarily "competition"; it all depends on how one wants to view things. As is often said, there is no definitive best, only most appropriate or most suitable for individuals and their projects.
It's a potentially big market place out there for embedded development and the PICAXE holds it own and I see that continuing. Other alternatives will continue to exist as well, some will flourish, some will fall by the wayside. Different products will continue to meet different people's needs and expectations.
For me, I've had problems with the micro-USB connector on the Microchip programmer or supplied cable not being reliable and its software was a real problem as it demanded a screen size greater than my monitor supported thus somewhat unusable in those circumstances.
One thing with comparing any product with another is that they may be "alternatives" but not necessarily "competition"; it all depends on how one wants to view things. As is often said, there is no definitive best, only most appropriate or most suitable for individuals and their projects.
It's a potentially big market place out there for embedded development and the PICAXE holds it own and I see that continuing. Other alternatives will continue to exist as well, some will flourish, some will fall by the wayside. Different products will continue to meet different people's needs and expectations.
Andrew Cowan
Senior Member
It seems they sent out their press release/press samples too soon...
A
A
This product has nothing to do with PICAXE, the name is obviously just designed to confuse.
If people want to program raw PICs in assembler/C/BASIC compiler that is their decision - lots of people do -, but please don't be ripped off by these people. If you really want the exact same cheap PICKit2 programmer clone (exactly as photographed) buy it direct off ebay from the manufacturer in malaysia for around $10-$15 US instead!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/iCP01-A-USB-Microchip-PIC-Programmer-Tiny-Low-Price_W0QQitemZ270477620970QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item3ef9b8f6ea
http://www.piccircuit.com/doc/iCP01%20User%20Manual.pdf
So much for made in the USA (raw PICs are also made in the Phillipines last time we checked!)
If you really want to get an ICSP programmer for raw PIC programming the newer PICKIT3 from MicrochipDirect.com is much better and only a few dollars more for a genuine current programmer/debugger device!
If people want to program raw PICs in assembler/C/BASIC compiler that is their decision - lots of people do -, but please don't be ripped off by these people. If you really want the exact same cheap PICKit2 programmer clone (exactly as photographed) buy it direct off ebay from the manufacturer in malaysia for around $10-$15 US instead!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/iCP01-A-USB-Microchip-PIC-Programmer-Tiny-Low-Price_W0QQitemZ270477620970QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item3ef9b8f6ea
http://www.piccircuit.com/doc/iCP01%20User%20Manual.pdf
So much for made in the USA (raw PICs are also made in the Phillipines last time we checked!)
If you really want to get an ICSP programmer for raw PIC programming the newer PICKIT3 from MicrochipDirect.com is much better and only a few dollars more for a genuine current programmer/debugger device!
you then have some assurance of compatibility and comfort in knowing the seller will be around tomorrow
"It seems they sent out their press release/press samples too soon..."
- Press releases are usually written by the Company and often made to look like an article.
And sometimes written before release to gauge interest in a product. Then the maufacturer see whether production is worth it or not.
As for Made in USA versus Phillipines - well it's a tricky one.
"Made In..." is difficult when component parts are physically made all over the world.
The usual definition is something like:-
The Country in which last significant manufacturing process was carried out
- or words to that effect.
So, with a kit plus a PCB, he could consider that the kit was made (or at least assembled) in USA. The USA is a massive market and appealing to patriotism is fine by me.
"you then have some assurance of compatibility and comfort in knowing the seller will be around tomorrow"
- For years I've been saying exactly the same thing for years when people buy anonymous things from anonymous Ebay-type vendors!
People do the strangest things to save a penny. Some people will drive 50 miles to save a pound.
- Press releases are usually written by the Company and often made to look like an article.
And sometimes written before release to gauge interest in a product. Then the maufacturer see whether production is worth it or not.
As for Made in USA versus Phillipines - well it's a tricky one.
"Made In..." is difficult when component parts are physically made all over the world.
The usual definition is something like:-
The Country in which last significant manufacturing process was carried out
- or words to that effect.
So, with a kit plus a PCB, he could consider that the kit was made (or at least assembled) in USA. The USA is a massive market and appealing to patriotism is fine by me.
"you then have some assurance of compatibility and comfort in knowing the seller will be around tomorrow"
- For years I've been saying exactly the same thing for years when people buy anonymous things from anonymous Ebay-type vendors!
People do the strangest things to save a penny. Some people will drive 50 miles to save a pound.
Dippy: Welcome to the global village. Aside from the legendary Japanese town of Usa, check the infamous "Saipan Scam" => http://sonic.net/~doretk/Issues/00-06 SUM/madein.html
demonicpicaxeguy
Senior Member
100% agree with you here the pickit2's micro usb socket on the back has me scared it's going to break off the pcb since it's only a surface mount one,
the same goes for the other end it just doesn't have a very rigid feel to it,
mind you it's a damn good pic programmer and probably one of the best $35 i've spent so far
I never remove cable from USB end of PICKIT.
I've had mine dangling all over the place without issue.
As I said before it's the PIC end (SIL socket) which is more likely to get stick. And made some little adaptors to take the strain. And a ZIF adaptor.
The MELabs has a couple of advantages (in odd apps) but costs a lot more. AND you can, if your wallet is happy, get ready made ZIF adaptor boards.
And the software allows more adjustments than PICKIT, but PICKIT does have a couple of nice little extras doesn't it.
I've had mine dangling all over the place without issue.
As I said before it's the PIC end (SIL socket) which is more likely to get stick. And made some little adaptors to take the strain. And a ZIF adaptor.
The MELabs has a couple of advantages (in odd apps) but costs a lot more. AND you can, if your wallet is happy, get ready made ZIF adaptor boards.
And the software allows more adjustments than PICKIT, but PICKIT does have a couple of nice little extras doesn't it.
Perhaps more importantly, would you trust anyone who doesn't publish an address or contact phone number ? Publishing such details is I believe a legal requirement for UK Limited Companies but probably doesn't apply in other jurisdictions.I look at it more simply: would I trust my money with someone who uses greengrocers' apostrophes?
With references in their HTML to www.brockwayengineering.com it may be they are part of that concern, or maybe they just scrapped the web site to use as their own format.
BeanieBots
Moderator
Looks like more than just a 'scrape'.
Maybe brand names isn't all they're into copying.
All round, I'd say VERY suspicious.
Legal or not, certainly immoral, so they'll not be getting any money from me.
(Ltd. company address IS a legal requirement in UK)
Maybe brand names isn't all they're into copying.
All round, I'd say VERY suspicious.
Legal or not, certainly immoral, so they'll not be getting any money from me.
(Ltd. company address IS a legal requirement in UK)