PEBBLE - Picaxe Electronic Bread Board Layout Emulator

ScottCarson

New Member
Breadboard layout options

First, really nice program. Thank you for the great work and making your program available.

I'm hoping your pending breadboard layout options will accommodate the breadboards we're planning to use in the high school robotics course we're piloting this coming fall semester.

The breadboards we're using have 30 rows and use the double rails on both sides. Unfortunately when our BB is oriented with the letter "a" to the top left to match your onscreen breadboard, our numbers run from right to left, i.e, the number "1" is at the top right which is opposite your current breadboard layout. So I'm hoping you're planning to include the option to reverse the column letters and/or row numbers so the onscreen breadboard can be configured to match essentially any of the many BB layouts.

Thanks again.

Scott
 

manuka

Senior Member
Scott- tweaking to suit is indeed a mere graphics editor doodle. Just work on the master breadboardbackground.gif file amongst the PEBBLE images. See some of my efforts above.

FWIW I've used all sorts of BBs educationally for ~30 years (!) & somewhat predictably have developed firm views about the most lucid layouts. In particular I feel the supply rails should be kept as far from each other as possible- old hands may scoff, but newbies WILL blunder & short the supply/destroy ICs if they're too close together. +V above & GND below is of course the schematic standard too.

The long standard single +5V supply is now of course moving to 3.3V, conveniently delivered cheaply by a Li battery or just 2 x AAs. Hestitant learners relate to AA batteries -mains PSUs confuse & even scare many! I'd a foreign adult student recently who confessed he'd been mains shocked while fiddling with an old TV as a kid. His parents then firmly applied a "Never touch exposed connections if mains powered" rule!

A simple kit can furthermore be used portably outdoors/home/library etc. With the cheap netbooks now abounding, students may become extremely frustrated if their robotics circuitry has to be mains powered for code tweaking/motor testing etc. Stan.
 
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manuka

Senior Member
Many robotic "shootouts" are run in schools halls of course. FWIW I lived in Blighty for some years when younger,& indeed endured their infamous grey wet weather. However I also experienced UK droughts & heatwaves- memorably 1973 (& more recently) 2006.
 

westaust55

Moderator
Hi Scott,
Thanks for the feedback.
If a BB layout is know about them I can make endeavours to incorporate same.
As manuka says, there is always the option for users to edit a BB image to create what they desire as well.
Each different layout requires:
(a) a BB image as a .gif file,
(b) a second if the BB view is to be rotated through 180 degrees
(c) code changes to define the position of holes in the BB – as you can see now, you cannot locate a device with the upper most pins (relative to screen) in a gap where there is no hole. Component positioning is based upon the top left pin only so other pins can “hung” in space.


First, really nice program. Thank you for the great work and making your program available.

I'm hoping your pending breadboard layout options will accommodate the breadboards we're planning to use in the high school robotics course we're piloting this coming fall semester.

The breadboards we're using have 30 rows and use the double rails on both sides. Unfortunately when our BB is oriented with the letter "a" to the top left to match your onscreen breadboard, our numbers run from right to left, i.e, the number "1" is at the top right which is opposite your current breadboard layout. So I'm hoping you're planning to include the option to reverse the column letters and/or row numbers so the onscreen breadboard can be configured to match essentially any of the many BB layouts.

Thanks again.

Scott
 

westaust55

Moderator
PEBBLE - header pins terminal strips added

Drew up a set of header pins covering strips from 2 to 9 pins in length last night. For longer strips folks can just put two shorter segments side by side.
Out tonight so will be no progress but sometime over the weekend I will create a matching set of header sockets and arrange label text positions.
Just had a thought . . . might rework the header pin images to add a transparent region at the top in which the labelling test will be placed. This region will not be seen (as it is transparent) but will allow text to be always started form the left and always the full length of the terminal strip so ID can be added either for the strip or possibly with some judicial positioning and abbreviation for each pin on the strip.
 

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ScottCarson

New Member
Thanks for all the quick replies. I realized shortly after posting my message that the BB.gif was readily available. So I should be able to edit the BB.gif to closely match our breadboards. Also appreciate all the feedback re: the robotics course. Should prove to be lots of fun.

Thanks again.

Scott
 

westaust55

Moderator
PEBBLE - terminal strip labelling

As a quick lunchtime “tweak”, I added the space above the header pin type terminal strips and changed to black text. Gives the ability to better label either the entire strip or individual pins.

It is necessary to use some periods (full stop) as a separator, as per the 4-way example, since Javascripts handle display of multiple spaces as a single space (at least without going to a far greater effort).

EDIT:
by end of lunch time have also created a set of simple header sockets as the matching portion to header pins.

Since as at last night, I still could not get onto the Rev Ed PICAXE forum (I can get to the Rev Ed general website), there may not be much more information from me until Monday morning unless the situation with forum access inproves . . . :rolleyes:
 

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ScottCarson

New Member
breadboard w/ 30 rows

Attached are my renditions of the 400 points / 30 rows breadboard that we're planning to use for our course. The "landscape" orientation with the horizontal labels was created for easier online use. The "portrait" orientation with the vertical labels actually matches the breadboard.

I've not been able to locate a comparably sized (and priced) BB with the single rails which I agree with one of the replies would likely be best for the novice student environment. We did a quick 2-weeks trail for an end-of-year project and definitely suffered some from the reverse polarity problem. I'll probably have the students use a marker and make the two "top" rails solid red and the two "bottom" rails solid black so we can keep the polarity separated as much as possible. Also planning to have them superglue the power leads into the breadboard and use a pigtail with a polarized connector to connect either the battery pack or an ac/dc power supply.

If anyone would like a copy of the BB files just let me know. They seem to work fine with the application. Only difference is the online screen depiction shows the black outline which is sized for the larger breadboard.

Thanks again.

Scott
 

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boriz

Senior Member
Slightly OT, sorry.

The breadboard I’m currently using has strips of 6 holes, not 5. I have been looking for replacements but everywhere I look, 5 holes only. Is this a ‘special’ board? Will a replacement be expensive? Anyone else got a 6 hole board?
 

manuka

Senior Member
Scott (especially)- you can't beat the 23 x10 (+ top & bottom supply rails) BBs (shown below) for novices. Larger "trainer" kits certainly may be needed for experts, but learners may find the "sea of holes" overwhelming. We're in an Play Station age when many teens, used to "autos" find "stick shift" approaches utterly bewildering.

I've found ( in ~30 years of BB use) that lucid in your face top & bottom supply rails are ESSENTIAL for learners. Avoid such offerings as those cheap Maplin AD-100 that neglect them, as blunders & short circuits WILL occur. These 23 x10 types are far & away THE most commonly used here in NZ, selling for ~US$3 each in bulk from local wholesalers such as TechSoft => www.techsoft.co.nz/electr.htm#Breadboards . NZ retail outlet Surplustronics sells at ~US$5 each => www.surplustronics.co.nz/shop/product-SA0060.html . 23x10s also suit 18-20 pin PICAXEs & even 433MHz devices => www.picaxe.orconhosting.net.nz/20m7segds.jpg and => www.picaxe.orconhosting.net.nz/hopecombo.jpg

For years I've just been giving them away to tech. students to keep in their tool kit-at such a low price they can even be sacrificed for prototypes. They neatly fit inside plastic mini boxes too - see a "take home" kit we designed back in 2005 => www.picaxe.orconhosting.net.nz/picnik2.gif Since that time however serial port fitted laptops have almost vanished, with a USB-D9 adapter now of course the norm for PICAXE work. N.B. Keep in mind the extensive demands of a typical electronics syllabus-it's not all micros! AC/DC circuitry,discretes, 555s, logic, FM bugs etc are common essentials too. With thought you'll find all can be readily handled by these BBs.

NB-IMHO careful initial BB instruction is needed,especially regarding wire stripping techniques, component mounting & wiring layout. Rat's nests may otherwise arise. The nifty (& cheap) jumper links shown => www.surplustronics.co.nz/shop/product-HW0015.html have been a recent real productivity aid.

I keep glues well away from Bread Boards-just suitably feed the supply wires thru' the end holes. Stan.

EXTRA: Robotics of course means motors. Their foreign P&P has been a challenge here in NZ, but your US firm Electronics GoldMine has marvellous cheap offerings, with their mini G14197 bipolar steppers even able to be directly 08M driven. See (modest cough!) => www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G14197 Yes- 23x10 BB mounted again.
 

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westaust55

Moderator
PEBBLE - Picaxe Electronic Bread Board Layout Emulator V1.2

Attached is a new update to the PEBBLE breadboard package – now at V1.2.

Some items on the left side menu have been relocated to make room for the new component types.

Now have included a range of DIP switches which includes a hexadecimal rotary switch,
The (intended) full range of terminal strips which includes SIL modules and breadboard programming modules/socket.

For 2 and 3 terminal devices, only an LDR is included at the moment but in the next few days I will add such things as crystals, resonators and batteries under this category.

Thereafter, I will be moving on to look at adding facilities for various breadboard backgrounds.


Have fun . ..
 

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ScottCarson

New Member
Thank you again for the suggestions. I'm definitely going to look a bit harder for a BB single top and bottom rails. And I really like your solution using the mounting holes to secure the power leads versus the super glue. We definitely share a common philosophy regarding the course materials / approach. Our breadboards are setup w/ a similar color-coded interface cable connection which is simple and inexpensive.

Scott
 

ValueAdd

Senior Member
Westy,

Your breadboard layout program is looking better every time I look check in on the forum.
I can envisage it is taking some hours to create all this work. It certainly gets my vote.
 

westaust55

Moderator
PEBBLE - still being worked upon

Hi all, currently still working on preparing a set of additional and tentatively final images to use with PEBBLE.

Blue LED's are amongst the added repertoire.

EDIT:

Just spied a programming error which will be correct in the next release.
While an LED would take on the selected colour at the time, if one went back to that same LED, the default colour had reverted to red rather than holding the previously set colour.
All a case of US versus English spelling for colour (color) in program typing
 

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westaust55

Moderator
PEBBLE - now has offset horizontal wires available

One of the past requests was to provide an offset wire so that a wire can be shown running mid-way between two rows of holes to span around a shorter wire.
Had a look over my lunch break and here are the results.
At this time the offset wire is only available in a horizontal mode – I do not see much value in a vertical version. Only did one to the upper side of the wire to be spanned. The offset wire selection icon is done using a 3rd icon next to the horizontal and vertical icons in the wire pop-up dialog box.
 

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BCJKiwi

Senior Member
Really excellent that progress is being made on this feature! The offset wire will make the program waaayy more usable.

Without this it is not practical to wire between say a PICAXE and a 7seg display.

However it needs to be offset by 1/3rd of the hole pitch and able to be set above or below the row centre.

This would enable 3 wires per row in parallel.

Vertical offset wires may be needed as would be wire ends without bare wire if routes are to be formed from the top half of say a PICAXE on the Left around to a pin on the bottom half an adjacent chip - say a 7Seg (Rev 99 perhaps??).
 
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westaust55

Moderator
PEBBLE - offset horizontal wires

Yes I can adjust the wires further for 1/3 hole spacing instead. That is relatively easy. Will do that tonight for the basic horizontal wires . . .

Providing variable colour around the "bend" instead of bar wire may not be so quick . . . . would have to work out how to colour a triangular shape using maths (wires and reistors are the only components drawn using maths rather than having a multitude of images for all variations).

there will also be some isues with being able to pick the correct wire as while visibly not overlapping (0 or 1 pixel separation only), offset wires will for all intents overlay the wire being by-passed. Just means may have to move another wire to get to the one you want.

More in the morning . . .
(my ISP has not come back with any response and home access to the forum via our iinet account is still off line :mad: ).
 

slurp

Senior Member
Looking Fab!

I'm glad you've taken on the idea of off-set wires and I think the pin IDs on PICAXEs and some of the the other chip is great!

Many thanks for all your effort!

Best regards,
Colin
 

MurrayJ

Senior Member
I love this program, and getting some great features. One thing I noticed, when selecting the following parts - Programming Socket, AXE29 for 18, AXE29 for 28/40 and HH10D Humidity the part would not change to that part. There is a work around, by selecting the rotation the part will appear, and then selecting again and rotating back to normal. Is it just my computer?
 

BCJKiwi

Senior Member
Westy, as suggested in my original PM on the topic of offset wires, -YIKES!! just gone to cut and paste the text from my PM and find it no longer exists!! - (forum system gremlins in the PM module?). I guess you never received it.

Well, what I suggested originally was that;
1. 2 wire types, a) straight (on centre of rows as per originals) b) wires offset by 1/3 and able to be flipped so they were either above or below the row centreline thus allowing 3 wires per row.
2. 2 end types for the wires, a) bare and straight (as per existing) or offset (align on holes), b) coloured and straight - i.e. no exposed wire thus allowing for creation of a Z or U shaped wire with bare wire at each end but the square corners to remain solid colour and not offset (so they don't cover the holes on offset wires).
This to allow a Z or U shaped wire to be created in any of the 3 positions relative to the holes in both the horizontal and vertical.

Another suggestion in the disappeared PM was that the wire length option be increased to 35 or thereabouts so a wire could be run the full length of the board without joins. This may not be such an issue if coloured ends were available as shorter wires could be joined together end on without bare wire at the joins - but longer wires would be simpler.

Also requested chips of other sizes so one could create a circuit using any chips.

Attached circuit shows the issues;
SAA1064 is a Philips 24 pin 2/4 x7seg driver chip with 8 outputs plus 7seg power each side, 4 of which from each side have to cross to the top or bottom of the 7seg displays. Only the two power and 3 of the necessary 16 segment wires are able to be created.
The wire on row J should be continuous (no 'connection' at column 18)
28 pin outline but SAA1064 is only 24 pin.

Hope this helps to explain some of the issues found when using Pebble and trust these comments are accepted in the spirit offered - to help make the program more useful - really appreciate the work you have put in on this but find there are some limitations in its present form and hope these may be overcome as time and evolution allows.

Thanks
 

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westaust55

Moderator
PEBBLE - selecting the pre-defined SIL type modules

I love this program, and getting some great features. One thing I noticed, when selecting the following parts - Programming Socket, AXE29 for 18, AXE29 for 28/40 and HH10D Humidity the part would not change to that part. There is a work around, by selecting the rotation the part will appear, and then selecting again and rotating back to normal. Is it just my computer?
Yahoo. I can access the forum again form home (at least for now!) :)

With the modules, if you select the module AND select the correct number of pins it will show correctly first time. (that is 3 for socket, 4 for AXE029 and 5 for HH10D). If you forget to set the correct number of pins just reopen the pop up menu and it will have automatically set. So just clcik okay

Wait until the students say "sir it does not show up",
then ask "did you select the right number of pins!"
 
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westaust55

Moderator
PEBBLE - more requests

Hi BCJKiwi,

Yes can make longer wires available and add extra chips sizes.

Will happen in forthcoming days as I am trying to wrap up a few more of the two and three wire components in coming days . . . .
 

kewakl

Senior Member
@westy
Do you have a list of not-yet-implemented requests?
If you do, then I would like to add "sanity check for components location"
The chip/multiposition switches MUST be fitted across the center gutter.
Component overlap check.

When you get around to the *cleanup* stage!

Looks great.
 

Dippy

Moderator
Lordy, it'll be auto-placement, auto-routing and circuit simulation next :)

But a pretty job you've done there Mate.
 

moxhamj

New Member
Ah, yes mycroft and slurp, I see what you mean. A paper based printout of the breadboard layout that you then stick on a real breadboard and then just copy the wires. Nifty.

Have we decided on a location for this yet? Somewhere easy to find ?? the completed projects section. Maybe a link to it from the next version of the manual? I'm thinking there needs to be the source code, but also maybe a folder for completed projects. Somewhere where anyone can upload a completed project (the text file and also ? the jpg screen capture). So people could either grab a screenshot of a circuit. But also get the text for one that is almost what they want and then they can edit it a bit for themselves. I'm thinking of generic circuits with battery, download resistors, picaxe. Maybe even switch, led, ldr, as it might be easier to remove components than to add them?
 

westaust55

Moderator
PEBBLE - component location rules.

@westy
Do you have a list of not-yet-implemented requests?
If you do, then I would like to add "sanity check for components location"
The chip/multiposition switches MUST be fitted across the center gutter.
Component overlap check.

When you get around to the *cleanup* stage!

Looks great.
The aim is not to have too many rules.
Heck I could impliment rules so the IC's will never overhand the right hand side.
Even now adding all the extras, I am seeing the package some down. Has gone from virually instant start to quite a pause as all is loaded up.

Even now, to achieve an offset wire YOU effectively place a wire over the top of a straight wire.
We must leave something for the students to work upon . . . .



My later intention is to have what in effect will be an off-board area below the breadboard upon which items like switches, pots, motors, batteries can be placed. They will "snap" to a hidden grid and you drop wires down from the breadboard to the hidden area.
 
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