Read contents of a PIC / PICAXE Chip?

darrenkarp

New Member
Hi All,

I have a PICAXE Experimenter board and I'd like to be able to read a program stored in a PICAXE chip as I have lost the original file on my PC. Is this possible?

Thanks
Darren
 

Dippy

Moderator
...with a little note attached saying "and NO, you can't extract other people's code either!"
:)

As Andrew says...backup and backup regularly - even a USB stick backup is a good idea.
 

atharvai

Senior Member
just out of curiosity.. can the program be read on other similar chips such as maybe PICs without the bootstrap program.

oh with X1 parts which have two program memory. if they share the same accumulator can the registers be read out at least?
 

Texy

Senior Member
just out of curiosity.. can the program be read on other similar chips such as maybe PICs without the bootstrap program.
depends on the program/programmer - if the Code Protection flag was set during programming of the Pic, then 'no'.


Texy
 

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
With enough money or determination plus time on your hands and tools, you can probably get any protected program out of anything. Even when you've done that you only have access to what the program has become, not the original source code; that's another giant hurdle to overcome.

The simple answer is "no", it's a one way process - Your program goes into the PICAXE never to come out again.

Not entirely true of the 08/08M/14M/20M/18 but it's not something most people can do and amost certainly not worth the effort in trying, far easier to rewrite the source code. It's only worth mentioning because someone determined could potentially steal a commercially valuable program from those PICAXE but that's also unlikely to be a realistic actuality.
 

Andrew Cowan

Senior Member
I read a very intersting article in a magazine about extracting code from chips. It used a $700,000 microscope to look at the die in the chip. The program could then be calculated.

Andrew
 
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moxhamj

New Member
I know the horse has bolted in this case, but I like to print out the program on a piece of paper and put it in the box with the circuit board. Old fashioned I know, but the program is where you want it in the future if you need to recode it or replicate it in 10 years time on the new updated picaxe that has 1 meg of code space and costs 20c.
 

marcos.placona

Senior Member
I know the horse has bolted in this case, but I like to print out the program on a piece of paper and put it in the box with the circuit board. Old fashioned I know, but the program is where you want it in the future if you need to recode it or replicate it in 10 years time on the new updated picaxe that has 1 meg of code space and costs 20c.
Just make sure you don't use your fax machine (and it's papers) to print the stuff you want.

I've heard about some very funny "paper backups" having it's text to fade away afters a couple of months stored in a box :D
 

retepsnikrep

Senior Member
My old man wrote a satircal few words on this subject sort of.

"Relax, it’s a Computer.

Records of the computer age will be a blank in the future.

Better now we print them all out on vellum, roll them up and put them in a wooden box. Sure as eggs are eggs, our computers will lose them all eventually.

The reliable, safe computer is a myth. We have tampered with nature and gone too far. If you lose a piece of paper in the filing cabinet, maybe it's fallen out of its folder and is lying in the bottom of the drawer. You can find it. If you lose a document in your computer, forget it. Imagine that old filing cabinet had a button on the front, one press of it and the whole contents take a one way trip to oblivion. Would that button be accidentally pressed one day? You can bet your back-up it will. If there were two buttons on the cabinet which had to be pressed in a certain order, would it still happen eventually? Goodbye.

The computer experts, who are professionals in the arcane art, say any problems are all the fault of dopey users. A snooker professional would also think we should be able to put together a break of at least fourteen, but we can’t. The cry of the PC Pro is, ‘A computer can’t make mistakes.’ I wish to advise them that computers are temperamental, infuriating, unpredictable and as difficult to use as a one-wheeled bike. Maybe the top five per-cent of computer users can cosset their particular machine in such a way as not to upset it and give it a grudge against humanity. Normal people can’t. The fact is that a lot of the time spent using a computer must be devoted to it’s wellbeing. E.g defragmenting the hard drive! If I had to defragment my grill as often I would give up toast.

Hard drive! We needed that. A disc of magnetism of unimagineable capacity, going at incredible speeds with a pick-up arm floating a millionth of a hair’s breadth from the surface. I call that soft, an anvils hard. And this robust piece of indestructablity is the heart of it all. Everything saved is gone if it breaks. Have two perhaps? Trust it all to two butterflies wings? You can worry about both then.

I am a law-abiding citizen until I use the computer. Then I commit more illegal acts than the Mafia. I wish it told me ‘Not a good idea.’ Or ‘Whoops.’ Instead of having the quickest, most one sided trial in history and giving the inevitable sentence like Judge Jeffries. And what’s with this ‘fatal error’? Nobody’s died yet.

When all the butterflies wings won’t do anything, for reasons known to no-one, a screen just stays, and all mouse wheeling and key jabbing does nothing. We have to become a shamefaced felon, look over our shoulders, and when the coast is clear, switch it off in a way of which it does not approve.

If it never works again we know it was our fault and it serves us right."

Now where are my backup butterfly wings :rolleyes:
 

marcos.placona

Senior Member
Just as a tip for the people concerned about backups. If you wanna make sure you have your files anytime and anywhere, you should invest some money in an online backup facility.

They are quite clever this days, and will just back up the changes and not the whole thing.

Amazon S3 is an example of that. I'm sure Amazon has a better backup service than I do. Of course, if one day the "Matrix" is broken, everything goes to space, even if they have some "hard backups" on storage tapes for example.

There's a service I've been using for quite some time now which is called dropbox. Basically it's a plug-in you have installed on your computer (windows or mac) that is able to recognize all the changes you make on a specified folder, and upload it to a server (using Amazon S3). Best of all, you don't need to do anything, it syncs your folder with their server automatically.

All the data is encrypted to make sure no one steals your data.

It has about 1gb storage space (will change in some months when they start with the paid subscription, but the existing accounts will continue to be free)

There's a very limited number of invites, so should anybody here be interested, I'm willing to give 5 invites away (you get ten as soon as you create your account)

I've been using it for my picaxe & stuff folder, and so far it works flawlesly. I've also used it last month when I accidentally saved the wrong contents into a .bas file and pretty much lost all my code. Great news is that they are also preppared to that, and keep all the versions of everything changed.

just my 2 cents on this conversations :)

UPDATE: Forgot to mention. It's free
 
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atharvai

Senior Member
marcos, why invest? just use Google mail... and google docs. that way u don't even need a word processor or a spreadsheet application! Google mail has about 6GB storage. if u use Firefox (ALL MUST) just use the GSpace addon so u can upload files greater than 20MB. yes even DVD ISOs i've done it. And if its just documents then just upload and save a draft email.!

This will save u lots of money! and its pretty secure
 

Dippy

Moderator
Very true Art.
I store things on the web Server - then it's someone elses job to keep it safe. But as i don't trust them I also keep some stuff on DVD and USB stick and sometimes, if I'm feeling really anal, an SD card too. Another good method is to D/A your code and store it on a wax cyclinder so you can replay it on great-grandad's gramophone player.
Or you could just give up and double your income by getting a job as a plumber.
 

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
The biggest problem mankind as a whole faces is keeping information for the future. I may have a cure for cancer on an 8" floppy but no one would know nor be able to tell. The paper tape and punch cards I still have will probably outlast and be more readable in the future than any of the current media we are using.
 

atharvai

Senior Member
true unless ofcourse ur house is on fire. ;)

for arguments sake

I think the best way to store information is in the brain and then all u need is a machine which can read ur memory. information will be there for a bloody long time as long as the brain gets the oxygen and a few nutrients. don't need the body for the brain to be working...

don't judge me pls
 

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
Re Amazon S3 etc : Most of these charge for storage and data transfers so what we really need are philantropic people offering similar services for free even if to a more limited community, geographically or in interest area.

A 1TB disk costs sub-£100/$200 these days and that can provide 10,000 users with their own 100MB of off-site backup or even web space. True, that's not the be-all and end-all of it, but it shows what can be done with near minimal outlay.

If one wants a more traditional paid-for service, a one off fee of £10/$20 gives ten people 100GB each. Maybe £10/$20 for 10GB is reasonable, leaving 90MB each for 10,000 others for free ?

Of course, while profit making and greed are the order of the day ...
 

marcos.placona

Senior Member
Re Amazon S3 etc : Most of these charge for storage and data transfers so what we really need are philantropic people offering similar services for free even if to a more limited community, geographically or in interest area.

A 1TB disk costs sub-£100/$200 these days and that can provide 10,000 users with their own 100MB of off-site backup or even web space. True, that's not the be-all and end-all of it, but it shows what can be done with near minimal outlay.

If one wants a more traditional paid-for service, a one off fee of £10/$20 gives ten people 100GB each. Maybe £10/$20 for 10GB is reasonable, leaving 90MB each for 10,000 others for free ?

Of course, while profit making and greed are the order of the day ...
Yeah, but wouldn't it be best to use dropbox and have 1gb for free?
 

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
Dropbox sounds good but they do force you to grant everyone an "irrevocable right and license to use and exploit" your uploaded files and it's only Beta at present with a very strong hint that they may start to charge fees in the future. And despite their front page, "we promise not to use your e-mail for anything else" that's not what the actual T's & C's say.

Always read the small print. There's rarely a free lunch but that doesn't mean that what's on offer doesn't fit what's wanted. Always ask yourself what anyone offering a service gets out of it and why it's on offer.
 
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Dippy

Moderator
"Always read the small print. There's rarely a free lunch..."
- nail struck firmly on the head there. Altruism is pretty rare.

For security etc. DIY is the only way to and so anything really important needs regular backing up and backing up of the backups. And then copying onto other media ad nauseum.
(But if you'll do that for free, in perpetuity, and for everyone Marcos, then you are a generous chap without equal :))

Of course if you are the British Government you simply allow employees to 'lose' DVDs of tax records for half the population, or you let MOD employees take notebooks home and leave them on the train. Thereby getting free backup of your data on villain's PCs.
 

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
A simple gain for extra protection is to split the hard disk into separate partitions and copy files over as there's a better chance one will surivive ( especially 'operator error' ). Two disks are even better, then separate servers. Keep backup partitions at ~4.5GB and they're easy to burn to DVD without messing about.
 

papaof2

Senior Member
Use USB drives for backup (500GB for $100US this week at Staples.com) - but get two and use them alternately: drive A on odd days and drive B on even days. There's a good chance that one of them will be readable ;-)

Or put a new, big hard drive in an older (i.e. inexpensive) PC and copy to that drive. If you don't have a home nework, an old non-wireless router can be had for under $20US (maybe even free) to connect the computers together for data transfer. As drives get cheaper, put a new, bigger drive in that PC. 500GB SATA for under $100US (several to choose from: http://www.geeks.com/products.asp?cat=HDD

As always, backups are only as good as your reliability in making them...

Having had to rebuild my laptop recently, I'm very aware of the need for backups - fortunately, I had 95% of the laptop's drive contents on a USB hard drive and could retrieve the rest with a disk recovery program. The only loss was a LOT of tme :-(

John
 

demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
The biggest problem mankind as a whole faces is keeping information for the future. I may have a cure for cancer on an 8" floppy but no one would know nor be able to tell. The paper tape and punch cards I still have will probably outlast and be more readable in the future than any of the current media we are using.
i dunno the egyptians may have perfected it , they simply wrote on the walls and it's lasted several thousand years,
it's crying shame we cant really read it though
 

evanh

Senior Member
If a computer system's normal shutdown isn't just a simple "pull the plug" then it's badly designed.


Evan
 

moxhamj

New Member
The more hard drive crashes you have, the more backups you end up doing. I back up weekly to Mozy (free, and it only sends changes, and it sends you a quick message if it hasn't done a backup for over a fortnight). And I back up to a USB drive. And I back up to my webserver space (I'm way over the limit there, but I gather they don't ever bother checking).

But even that may be fickle. Maybe hippy's punch cards are the best?

I'm currently working on a CPM computer (for those jobs where a picaxe just doesn't have enough ram), and one of the big problems is that CPM exists on floppy disks that are now falling apart. Literally. (They go sticky). And these were disks that came with a "lifetime guarantee". Lucky someone uploaded the important bits to the net. CPM used to be as big as Windows. Now hardly anyone has even heard of it.

Maybe we should build a machine to chisel the bits and bytes onto the walls of caves in the desert. Like dpg says, at least that may last a few thousand years.

dpg - reading the Egyptian's tombs was a complete mystery till the French discovered the Rosetta Stone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone And what did they find when they finally translated it? You guessed it, Tax Law.

I wonder what would happen if we backed up our hard drives onto stone, and in thousands of years some brilliant polymath spent a lifetime decoding it - and was finally able to present to the world the crowning glory of the data of our civilisation - lots of pictures of ladies who should be wearing more clothes?!
 
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hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
There's got to be some way to laser etch human readable content onto a durable material and we should be able to get the density quite high for that.
 

Dippy

Moderator
Drac: Don't assume the content of everyone else's hard disk is the same as yours!!
Besides, they ain't 'ladies'.

Backups are annoying when they fail. I got some DVDs which won't read back 6 months later. No I didn't use them for clay pidgeon shooting. But who is going to send duffers back to the suppliers?
 

moxhamj

New Member
Good point dippy. Fundamentally, what are DVD's anyway. A dye that changes its properties slightly when exposed to light. Not a very permanent medium.

Even eeproms that are used to store picaxe programs are pretty fragile when you look at the physics. Ditto eproms if you take them out in the sun. Proms are probably the most robust.

This one http://www.paperdisk.com/ may be a bit more permanent (I have used it and it does work but it is slow). Assuming you have a scanner, and no fires, and no water damage, and no moths that like eating paper...

Oh, and manuka, yes my day job would be a lot quieter like you say. I ended up using 5 pregnancy tests today at work. Lots of girls seem to be getting pregnant these days. Must be something in the air. Like their legs.

But then again, the outcome is a cute baby and I actually quite enjoy paediatrics. Kids get sick, but they also get better quickly and that is the satisfying bit of medicine.

But also nice to get back home and back into some programming!
 
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i wonder if i can get Leopards TimeMachine

to back up my windows partion.

Come to think of it it might already do it, might check it out when i get home.
 
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